Capacity vs. Caliber

[MoCop]

I think a Glock 21sf would be a great mix of caliber AND capacity.

[mikeintx]

Originally Posted by taseal

capacity...

as a grunt, I have seen our 'small' calibers do deadly damage. this includes the 9mm

I don't like talking about this stuff, but I've seen seeing these threads alot lately, so I want to chime in...

I respect our LEOs and I'm few weeks from starting out as a rookie with a dept here. but capacity is key. I have never been in a situation in rooms (and distance) where I shot a person one time (or twice) and it was enough. I always put at least 3, and there were times where I shot until they tumbled down. this was maybe 4-5 times on a single person. This is CQB distance.

now we increase this to 25-50 yards with a pistol, I have never shot like 2 rounds at a person and watch them go down, and move to the next person. it usually took a magazine or two (15 rounders) to take down few bad guys

if you look at some youtube videos of cop shootings, you'll see there is way more than a magazine of rounds being exchanged.

so with my experience in actually shooting and killing my enemies with a pistol, I will take capacity every time.

it's diff when the target isn't paper or steel, under cover, constantly moving and shooting back at you.

Please don't ask questions and I probably won't write about this stuff again, but I had to clear the air about it with actual field experience.

I hope this clears up some stuff.

Taseal, thank you for your service!

I gather from your information it was during military service. An important difference between your shootings and police shootings is agency/officer ability to choose hollow point defensive rounds designed to perform better. I have had a few friends involved in duty and off duty shootings over my 18 yr career. I have learned a few things from their incidents. I have studied and reviewed some ballistic studies. I used to work for a security corporation and they issued us .38 revolvers and issued us 6 semi-wadcutter rounds. I protested at the time but they insisted. I learned by talking to some of the older heads that some of the security officers had been in shootings where they had expended all 6 rounds and even though the rounds were center mass, the suspect kept fighting and ultimately survived the encounter. Despite abysmal performance, they insisted on continuing to use poor performing ammunition. Look at how long it took NY PD to change from ball ammo to HP ammo. There has been a few articles written there to go along with their shootings and the failure of the ammo to do what was desired. Look at our own military having poor performance of the 5.56x45 round in their SBRs (velocity being the key to its performance). A friend of mine has been in a couple of off duty shootings. His choice of sidearm is a 2in barreled .38 snub nose revolver. The two shootings he was in he fired 1 shot center mass and dropped the suspects, neither of them survived the gunfight. Ammo choice was hydro-shocks. He practices with the revolver and the ammo. My buddy always played the "what if" game and constantly watched what was going on around us on a call. He was my sergeant at the time and I paid attention because I valued his experience (one shooting at the time when I met him and a few ugly fights).


My experiences, studies, and experiences of my co-workers/friends have lead me to some conclusions:

1. Pistol caliber is definetely not prefered over rifle or shotgun caliber!
2. Whatever caliber you choose, use good quality defensive rounds not practice ammo!
3. Practice with the same duty ammo so you know how it performs in your sidearm.
4. Take care of your sidearm, because it will take care of you!
5. Practice with your holster and magazine reloads etc. (I am amazed at how many officers I have met that do not practice with their equipment and ones that do not use all or any of their holster snaps).
6. Be prepared mentally for what you might have to do. Play the "what if" game in your mind and stay sharp!

My overall point is that it is not just about what gun you carry or how many bullets it can hold. We MUST REALIZE that is an entire SYSTEM that comes together: the gun, ammo, training, mental/physical preparation etc. We should not ever think or forget about any part of that equation. I know I have let a thing or two slip over my 18 year career. I am just darn lucky it did not cost me my life or that of a fellow officer.

[AWMP]

Very good thread that is talked about often in our ranks.

Caliber vs Capacity is always a hot topic, whatever you do decide on make sure you do one thing PRACTICE.

Shoot, dry fire, reloads, tactical reloads, etc but make sure you do it with what you will be using.

[AKERSCQB]

Accuracy is better than either. Research I have done with reading FBI crime report and NYPD reports is at best 40% hit at point blank distance decreasing dramatically as distances increase.

If you shoot in the 80s on range day under perfect conditions with planning and fore thought (knowing where target is, where to shoot, how much to shoot and when to shoot) you will not shoot at 80% under surprise and stress. I have confidence with my 1911. I carry several spare mags in my car and in plan cloths one on me. Make a choice and practice with what ya have. One of my favorite sayings is I believe Clint Smith "you can't miss fast enough to win a gun fight".

[Snorkel]

When I first started 26 years ago, we had to carry the department issued Model 66 with .357 rounds for two years. Plus two speed loaders on the belt and more in the car. I hated that Model 66. My first day after two years, I started carrying a Colt Government Model plus two magazines on my belt. I would practice drawing and shooting as much as I could. The few times I did have to draw my gun, it just seemed to appear in my hand. I don't remember drawing it.
We would tease each other over which was better, 9mm or .45. The guys with 9mm saying I've got more ammo than you and the .45 guys saying, my bullets are bigger than yours. In all those years, no one involved in a shooting ever ran out of ammo.