I've heard any number of shots from different people but I am looking for a legitimate source that reports the number of shots on average that are fired in a gunfight.
Iv'e been present when police had to take real verbal abuse off of some of the local punks. Stuff like " fu pig, what are you going to do about, I'm a minor"? Go ahead hit me. The officers are always professional and don't lose their Cool.
At our Action Pistol Range the police are good enough to leave their used cardboard targets for us to take home. I have some in my garage now. Just have to tape over the holes, and they work fine.
What I noticed about these targets that all were the hits. All hits were in an area that would cause immediate incapicitation. Good Shooting! They must be doing somethng right.
We too have a police range that Civilians come to shoot under supervision and from the looks of the targets things are pretty good before ours are put up. I have seen how Deputies and Police shoot in the various ranges we have available and they do well.
The People that come to shoot have a variety of results on paper and receive instruction to improve. And by the end of the shoot, improvements are noticeable.
I am not privy to our particular Police Department's budget on rounds and training shoots, but they do use the Tasers that are available to them from time to time rather than hauling out the iron. Because most of the time the bad guy is usually drunk or otherwise uncooperative.
Well I would think the answer to the OP varies greatly depending on a number of variables including distance, geography, weapon, lighting, and most importantly the shooters' skill level.
I know people who could stand 25 yards from each other standing still, fire a whole mag through their Glock, and neither would be wounded. However I also know people that can hit a running person 25 yards away in 1-3 shots.
Seeing how I frequently had to make repairs to the wiring and lights in the ceiling, and the carriers that held their target...then took out the trash which included their target backers and targets......no, most of them can't shoot worth a damn.
I have been a LEO for for almost 25 years and have been involved in deadly force situations.
As some have stated, leo shootings are very different in many ways as opposed to civilians defending themselves or the bad guy trying to do harm to someone.
Cops as a general rule are better than average shooters. There are some cops that are terrible and some that are top notch. Most agencies across the nation don't have the time and or money to properly train their cops. They qualify 3-4 times a year and that is it.
I work in LA County and fortunately we have the money for firearms training. I also take my own time and money to train in addition to what I get at work. I know from personal experience that when the s#$% hits the fan, you WILL fall back on your training, however good or bad it is.
I think that it is true that most leo shootings will happen at a close distance (less that 7 yards) and will be over rather quickly, hopefully with the bad guy on the losing end.
What makes the leo shootings really different is the myriad of factors/policies and laws that the officer has to consider before using deadly force. The other huge factor that was stated by someone else, is the fact that cops are reacting to what the bad guy is doing and therefore playing catch up.
Going to the range and punching holes in paper is great. You can hone most of your skills doing that. You should also find training that involves moving, reloading, failure drills and moving targets.
I have seen very few one shot stops. I have seen bad guys take several 45 rounds in the upper body and still shoot back at us, one handed from his knees. I have seen bad guys take fatal hits and run away while shooting at the cops before finally coming to rest over 100 yards from where he started.
The more you can train the better off you are. I hope that I can finish off my career without having to decide again if I am going to use deadly force or not.
OK...after straying from the topic, dicussing LEO's relative shooting prowess, range setup, etc...etc...we still haven't answered the question have we?
Are we back to the standard axiom...3 shots, 7yards, low light, little cover, 5 seconds? Or have we come up with an updated but equally irrelivant formula?:biglaugh:
O.K., now for a more serious response: Some of you will remember the account I posted of my friend who was involved in a gunfight in Venezuela. Lesson from his experience was that you can't have too much ammo and you can't count on all gunfights occurring @ 7 yds. I don't routinely carry a back-up mag, but I do carry a handgun that holds 11 rounds. I also routinely practice out to 100 yds with all my handguns. Probably won't ever have to use a firearm in self-defense at any range, certainly no likely @ 100 yds, but who knows?
For those of you who didn't see my previous thread about the friend's gunfight, the shooting started @ about 40 yds and a lot of shots were fired. Friend killed one of the perps...probably wounded another. Friend was seriously wounded but has recovered pretty well.
The thing we should remember is that statistics don't hold for individual cases. Many a man has been drowned in a river that only averaged 6 inches deep.
So if any of us are unfortunate enought to be in a gunfight, we shouldn't count on it being the "average" gunfight. We should practice things like shooting at longer than average ranges, reloading under pressure, engaging multiple targets and so on, because there are no gaurantees in life.
I can tell you from personal experience that the reason a lot of cops don't come back to IPSC matches after trying them has less to do with ego than it does with the fact that IPSC is extremely artificial and has almost no training value.
Anyone that claims gun games have no training value lacks an understanding of training and conditioning.
Here's a short list of some of the tasks required during gun "games"...
1. Safely load firearm
2. Safely unload firearm
3. Reduce stoppage
4. Engage targets freestyle
5. Engage targets strong hand only
6. Engage targets weak hand only
7. Magazine change
8. Engage full size target
9. Engage partially obscured target
10. Target discrimination
11. Safely operate a firearm while moving
12. Draw and engage targets from holster
etc.....
Amazingly enough, they look pretty similar to the same core tasks/skills taught by any quasi-decent firearms program. What a concept.
While the concepts of speed and accuracy can be taught, they must be developed through live fire. Gun "games" provide an excellent venue to maintain and enhance fast and accurate shooting skills, which is important for any armed profession.
Fact is, I KNOW I'm a better shot than I was before shooting IPSC for a few years...
I've had military training with firearms, and have also had some civilian training in tactics, use of cover, etc. Also had some martial arts training back when I could actually get out of my own way.
I will say, without a doubt, shooting IPSC improved my physical gun handling skills more than the rest combined. Thousands and thousands of repetitions drawing, presenting, sight aquisition, trigger squeeze, follow-up shot, reload... How could anyone doubt the usefullness of such practice?
Having read the thread here is my opinion on some of the conversations.
I have always heard that 3-5 rounds is about average for stateside engagements.
I have worked with law enforcement and not been always dazzled with gun handeling performance but I imagine if you compared similar numbers of cops to civilians cops win hands down statistically.
I think any training that adds stress to shooting scenarios will improve peoples performance in a real life situation. A two way range is very stressful IQ's drop to reptile level, any training to include competitition would help prepare for that. Shooting people is not shooting paper. Performance on the range is only one element to performance in a real situation.
A number of the folks I shoot with are also regular participants in "gun games" at the range. I don't partake because of the night of the week on which IPSC is held but I keep my hand in with the "hit while moving" side of things at a private range where everything and anything goes as long as ones rounds are kept "in house" or "in the backstop" and not fired out into the surrounding countryside. Shooting well while moving is definately a skill to be pursued.
Being a placement shooter that extra fraction of time to solidly place a round (if the opportunity is there) is preferred over rounds hitting close but not exactly. Putting a round into the heart or into the optic triangle is preferred over putting a round into the chest or the head. Putting a round anywhere damagaing is still preferred over putting a round generally somewhere.
As well all know it takes skill, time and practice to get good with a weapon in hand, even for some of the "naturals of which I have met one in my life. His shooting skills are legendary in this area. He can outshoot me any day of the week with his snubby .38/.357 shooting solid groups as distances I can't even see the target at any longer. Just the way it is.
In the end, do what works and keep practicing to bring that skill level up more and more.
Working under cover in a large city for 32 years I have been involved in two all out gun fights. The first was two shots fired by me, seven by the perp. Perp died from one shot too the head. Second was twelve total from the perp, six from me and five from another officer. Both gun fights were with in one year of each other.My rounds were from a Springer 45 in both cases. I hope that no one ever has too find themselves in that position. Something that will stay with you for the rest of your life, and you wish it never would have happened.......
Each gunfight and it's outcome is different. You need to fire enough rounds to end the actions of the suspect (agressor), be that 1, 2, 3 or 100. Don't get hung up on the number rounds fired, very miss leading. Let the media and Joe "I've never fired a weapon or been in a critial incident" public worry about that.
My incident lasted 4.5 seconds, but felt like 20 minutes. 5 rounds by the suspect and 18 rounds by the officers were fired during the exchange. The suspect hit his target twice and the officers hit their target 9 times. Stats were 20% accuracy for the suspect and 50% accuracy for the officers...overall not bad, but there is more to the story.
One of the officers was firing through a slat wood fence and could only see the suspect between the 1/8" gap between the fence boards and the other was firing through a 1/2" gap between the fence and fence gate.
The suspect took four center mass chest hits from a .45, dropped to his knees and continued firing. The neck shot that hit his carotid finally ended the fight.
Like some said earlier, MINDSET is very imprortant during a shooting incident.
I still find a good deal every now and then on .45 ACP, .44 Mag and .357 Mag guns that people fired a box of shells thru and take it back for a 9mm or a .38.
Used guns are used guns and I like to get a bargain. :biglaugh:
So much for the SA answer in the previous post. I went looking, and found that a relatively recent review of NYPD files indicates a low of 5.9 officer shots fired per gunfight ('91), up to 16.8 in 2000. The rough mean is 10.3, but it could be accurately stated that the shots fired per incident has been climbing steadily for this past decade, as well. BTW, the number per officer is roughly 45-50% of those numbers, indicating primarily two officers per incident, slightly skewed by a few high profile incidents. Unfortunately, the bottom line still is....it only takes one. Hope this helps clarify. Take care.
As I expected, the real number is difficult to pin down. There are way too many variables to arrive at a meaningful number. According to the studies I have located the number of shots fired per incident does seem to be climbing for the law enforcement community.
I suspect that I will continue to keep on doing what I've been doing.....8+1 of Hydrashocks. If I need more than 9 rds I'm probably screwed anyway.
I think everyone will agree on your last post. More than 9 means things are slightly out of hand. That's why I love my 1911's so much. A magazine always goes in faster than even half-moon clips....unless you're Jerry Miculek. Hopefully you, nor any of the other Forum participants will experience the need any time soon. Until the time comes, practice and enjoy.
PS: I can also personally vouch that the good Colonel Cooper is right on that last point. Took up pistols to vent the frustration of the 12-string. Worked great. Jumbo bodies make better targets, even with guitars! See 'ya.
I guess you prepare for what you think might happen.
I think my chances of getting in a gunfight are about nil. (I spend more time playing with my grandkids than I do out and about after 10pm:biglaughIt could happen however which is why I carry and practice with my carry gun.
However, I shoot a match a week during the season. I prepare for that.
Now, if I carried a gun for a living, it might well be different.
Well, let's see..... I've been in combat 6 times and never once did I flip the selector lever on my rifle past "semi". Sure it looks like spray and pray in combat. That's because there's not just one shooter.
I'm a cop and a gun nut. Yes, I know a bunch of cops who aren't gun nuts but can still shoot. I've been on the job for 10 years and have been in 3 officer involved shootings and I can tell you that spray-n-pray is a good way to go to the pen. Cops are very aware of, or should be very aware of where their rounds go. Since I'm responsible for every round that comes out of my gun, I train constantly. My first shooting I fired 4 shots with 3 hits at 8 yards. The second one I fired 9 and then 6 after I reloaded. 15 shots 5 hits at 19 yards. My last shooting was 1 shot, 1 hit at point blank.
Trying to "average" out the number of shots fired during a gunfight is a waste of time. Both gross and fine motor skills go down the toilet and muscle memory takes over. Until s**t happens to you, you'll never know how you'll react or how many times you'll pull the trigger. I know, from first hand experience, that I shoot until the threat stops, period. Whether it be 1 or 100 shots is irrelavant to me.
I have seen it both ways. LEO who are gun people and actually practice shooting and keeps their gun cleaned and in top shape and those who the gun is just and extra weight on the belt and it gets shot once a year for qualification and never cleaned. The same for non leo. Some practice, others shoot a box through it when they get the gun and keep it in the sock drawer "just in case" heck go to a gun club about deer season. Its amazing the guys who shoot a couple rounds a year and hit minute of target at 50-75 yards off a rest and wonder why they blow their 200 yard deer shot off hand
The most important point is, statistics don't hold in individual cases.
A good example is "Wild Bill" Hickock killing Davis Tutt at 75 yards (or 80, depending on your sources). Those who have shot a Colt Navy or reproduction will recognize that is an improbable feat -- yet it happened.
The moral of the story is, regardless of what happened in a thousand other gunfights has no bearing on what happens in your case.
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