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Bullets and Burgers Instructor Killed

15K views 124 replies 88 participants last post by  guy sajer 
#1 ·
#90 ·
Good God. This is very similar to what happened right here in MA a few years ago. A young boy, about the same age, couldn't handle the recoil of a fully automatic UZI pistol and wounded up killing himself as the gun strafed upwards.

Unfortunate for the instructor, but thank God the little girl is OK, albeit probably severely traumatized.

I'm sorry, but young children should not be handling full auto weapons, especially the light ones with really high rates of fire. Most don't have the upper body strength. It's tough even for adults. This instructor should have at least been behind her supporting hands on the gun.
 
#91 ·
Great timing! This weekend I'll be helping out as an RO. My range is having a machine gun shoot. I will be looking for something like this.
 
#95 ·
The last two posts plus previous one with limited 3 rounds in the mag until she can prove she can control the FA gun.

I trained my daughter (youngest of 3) when she was 7. She was shooting a Glock 17, with single rounds, until she could control it. Then at 9, I started her on a 1911 45 ACP, again single rounds until she could control it. After a while, she found the 45 too much for her, so she went back to the 9mm. As they were growing up, since they were trained in gun safety and have shot all the guns, we had at home, they never went looking for it when they were home alone. She is in her late 20s now, and is picking up the 1911 again. She says it feels more comfortable for her.

Age is not the issue here, it is the precautions taken that need to be scrutinized. As many of the previous posts above, there are a number of ways to make it safer for a 9-year old to handle a FA. As we all are aware, anytime we handle our guns, we have to be always conscious of our surroundings and our guns.
 
#96 ·
For those who are saying that a child should not ever be allowed to fire full-auto, I present 13-year-old Katelyn Francis:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yd4B77PkeaU

She's shooting a Bushmaster ACR on full-auto, and keeping the bursts nice and short. Admittedly she's well trained and gets lots of practice, but it clearly shows that young kids can responsibly handle select-fire weapons with the proper instruction.

With that said, the "instructor" screwed up. A Mini-Uzi has a rate of around 1000rpm, and that's tough to handle. What possessed him to give her a full mag, or a half-full mag, we'll never know. She should have had 3-5 rounds max in that gun, and should have fired at least one full mag on semi to get used to the recoil impulse.

I own both a full size and Mini-Uzi carbine (semi-only) and both guns are pussycats to shoot. No more recoil than a .22, especially the full-size carbine that weighs as much as a 20" AR. Full-auto changes that dynamic, however, as does open-bolt operation and a short barrel.

I feel for the little kid, and frankly curse the macho instructor.
 
#97 ·
I have fired a full auto Uzi a couple of times.

It is not something that I would place in the hands of a nine year old.
 
#98 ·
It seems that these "experience" packages attract people who want to shoot machine guns but don't have a lot of firearms training or safety knowledge. The entire mindset that it's more of an amusement park than a shooting range and that people are paying for the experience sort of sets up a dangerous expectation and precedent. The instructor and RO are responsible for the safety, but so is the shooter.

I'd probably pack up my rifle and leave in a hurry if the guy next to me at the range was letting a 9 year old novice learn on an automatic UZI.

I'm sure there are kids out there who can handle a full auto SBR, but I doubt they learned to shoot on them, either. Plus a AR is a lot easier to control than a sub pistol.
 
#100 ·
#101 ·
#103 ·
For what it’s worth my best friend years back was an ex Israeli soldier and SpO’s guy. He was pound for pound possibly the strongest man I've ever known.

Once in a while he would talk about the soldiering experience mostly to express his hatred for it. He told me how much he disliked the Uzi saying it was difficult to control . Trained people fire short bursts of 3-5 rounds or so.

So this is twice in a few years we have seen a death at a rental range. what the hell, nine year olds need to be prepared right?
 
#104 ·
I don't suppose there's any "point" in anybody's renting a f.a. at a range, except for the giggles, is there?

There was also a case, not too many years ago, where a grandfather was letting one of his grandchildren shoot his 1911. Grandfather was hovering over the child from the rear, and, when the 1911 recoiled, the child popped off another round (like a bump-fire) right into Grandpa's head, killing Grandpa instantly.

It's not JUST the f.a.s that kill people, but I'd agree that some f.a. firearms, e.g., an Uzi, would be difficult to control.

When my then-8-yr-old-son shot my father's MAC 10, there was an insulated suppressor attached, which provided a good grip for the weak hand. The MAC, albeit a crappy piece of machinery, was pretty easy to control. My G17 thought it was a G18 for a couple of weeks, several years ago. I found it pretty easy to control, also, just shooting short bursts.
 
#105 ·
I don't know what age is appropriate, but if a person cannot hold up a firearm on their own, they definitely should not be shooting full auto. In the vid, the instructor is holding up the gun in such a way that it is able to pivot into his chest.

I also agree with limiting the rounds. Like some of the others here, new or young pistol shooters get 1 round per mag. For full auto, I'd similarly go with maybe 3 rounds, then 6 rounds, etc.
 
#106 ·
A terrible tragedy for everyone.

CBS News last night showed the video and made a comparison to another video where the instructor was correctly positioned with support on the shoulder/arm area to prevent the rise of the muzzle. They also stated, and made a point, that the instructor was not NRA certified. It seems to me that both the video comparison and the comment that the instructor was not NRA certified made a point that the instructor was not properly trained.
 
#107 ·
Good on CBS for comparing and contrasting proper technique for such an activity-shocking, but fair. NRA certification really isn't relevant to this event. Working with FA is a very narrow and specialized skill set; not one taught by the NRA.
 
#108 ·
Its the same to me as turning a 9-yr old with no driving experience loose in a 950 HP race car. You just don't do it. Maybe a 9-yr old could start out with a .22 and work up to higher calibers and maybe even a machine gun at some future point, but a completely inexperienced girl? What was that guy smoking?
 
#112 ·
the range owner was on cnn last night. my sympathies to the range officer for sure.

lots of bad things can happen to any of us at anytime, but in my opinion, giving an auto and small hard to control one at that, to a tiny girl is just asking for an accident to happen. Range is motivated by $$$ and competition; not sure what goes on in a parent's head to go this route.
 
#113 ·
Where I live in NJ not to far from Philadelphia, I listen to a talk-radio station. They were asking the audience who should be blamed. Most people blamed the parents for allowing her to shoot. When my youngest son tried out for a baseball team, the coaches were there to assess his skills and capabilities. I put my trust in their hands, that they knew how a 9 yr. old should perform. If this girl was deemed capable of handling an Uzi by the instructor, then it rests on his shoulders. I don't want to dishonor his credentials but he made a bad judgement call. And by not standing behind her with his arms helping to support the recoil from the full auto on her first attempt at shooting an Uzi full auto was foolish. I took my same son shooting for the first time when he was 9, he'll be 11 this Sunday. He was able to shoot my S&W 915, my Colt 1911 in .45, an air rifle and my Remington 700 chambered in 30.06. He was also smart enough to tell me he didn't like shooting the 30.06 because it hurt, not scared of it. I didn't let him grab any gun and just shoot it. I assisted him in seeing how each gun functioned and shot. Within 15 minutes he was capable of loading and firing everything I own. Another thing that was brought up by some of the talk show hosts was, "How come the NRA hasn't commented on this?", which really pissed me off! What could the NRA possibly have to do with this shooting accident? Or better yet, how could they have prevented it. Really! The bottom line is that the parents put their trust in this shooting instructor to show her how to shoot, he performed his duty poorly and paid with his life. Luckily no one else was close enough to the line of fire that day or it could have been worse.
 
#114 ·
If this girl was deemed capable of handling an Uzi by the instructor, then it rests on his shoulders.
I do understand the point of blaming the instructor for gross negligence because he clearly was, if not by allowing her to shoot, at least clearly in how he was not under control of the firearm when it was in her hands which he paid the price for. However at the end of the day, a firearms instructor is not like a brain surgeon or a financial or legal fiduciary. He is a guy who went through a class or two and got a credential allowing him to instruct others in firearms usage. Parents are still ultimately responsible for the safety and well being of their children and that includes this situation. If they are totally ignorant about firearms then that should mean that they don't know enough to sign off on this. Parents cannot just abandon or hand over their responsibility to their children by turning them over to someone or something related to a mere recreational activity. All kinds of bad judgment but its not just on the instructor.
 
#120 ·
That is how the Italian contractors was training the Afghani police. The American contractors were giving their police trainees thirty rounds. The difference is 27 more misses.

On topic, simple people think it is a hoot to give little kids and novices guns that they can not handle. I think we all have been someplace where a simpleton gave a girl friend a 44 Magnum revolver to shoot just to see their reaction. Just look at YouTube ...
 
#122 ·
My wife and I did Bullets and Burgers in June. We had a blast and the entire crew was very professional and the instructors were very attentive to my Wife as she had only shot handguns up till then. I was greatly saddened to hear of this horrible accident. My prayers go out to the instructors family and the girl and her family as well.
 
#124 ·
Prayers for all the families involved with this. But this is not the first time something has gone horribly wrong with a kid holding a select-fire weapon. Didn't a kid around the same age accidentally kill himself a few years back at a gun show/range in MA (I think?) and the weapon in that instance was also an Uzi?

I have had the privilege of firing a variety of select-fire weapons. IMHO, it is not a good idea to hand an Uzi to a child, which has a very respectable rate of fire with a fast muzzle rise. That's too much of a short bullet-hose for a random 9-yr-old to be handling, and unfortunately we see again what can happen.
 
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