New RIA 1911 owner. Shots off target. Need to repair?

[nogoodnamesleft]

Originally Posted by TRSOtto

True, if shooting Bullseye. But the vast majority of 1911's are set up for defensive carry or any game except Bullseye so you'll find the sights set up to hit POA rather than with a 6 oclock hold.

The vast majority of stock 1911 pistols with FIXED sights are 6 o'clock hold and, in particular, the RIA GI .45 too. Adjustable sights may be POA depending on user preference. Custom after market sights, again through customer preference, may be POA. But fixed 1911 sights on stock production are by and large 6 o'clock hold.

[19112474me]

OP.......i believe your scientific mind is reading WAY too far into this. Did you try different grip? Shoulder levels? Breathing? Has your pistol made it past the 500 round break in period? Did you try using at least 5-6 separate types of ammunition? It is a known fact that some ammo is not as accurate as others.

Also as a new shooter.......are you sure the gun is defective? or could it possibly be the fact that you are very new to guns? You can read every book on earth, but that doesn't combat practice any day of the week.

I do not say this to sound mean, harsh or condescending. I say this because i am a NRA Certified instructor. I train 25-30 new shooters every week at our range. And most shoot high and right.

Books can tell you things like "feet shoulder width apart, a strong but somewhat loose grip, squeeze the trigger not pull!" But that is a fraction of the required information needed to constantly peg 2" groups at 30 ft or 30 yards.

You may be a intelligent man. By your posts i can tell that you are. However bullets to bullets the guys offering you advice......have a combined experience tally of well over 100 years of shooting, training, and gun smithing. I advise when you get your pistol back. Put the books down, Find a competent instructor and go to the base skills taught with a .22lr Pistol. Perfect those and when you are competent, go back to your .45 and try out what you've learned. Take the kind advice that people give you here, listen to it. Throw out all scientific reason. And enjoy shooting.

It is not a 1 week process. Most of us took 2-3 years and countless hours of range time, practice, and experimentation. Every shooter is different, what works for us may not work for you. Find your own niche. And run with it. But don't over analyze. If you do you will just end up with an answer that you cant do mathematically. And your shots will still suck ;-)

Shooting is like football 90% mental 10% physical. You have the knowledge to know how to hit the target mentally. Now find the physical. Get trained. Get experienced and enjoy firearms. You wont be disappointed once you do.

[TRSOtto]

Originally Posted by nogoodnamesleft

The vast majority of stock 1911 pistols with FIXED sights are 6 o'clock hold and, in particular, the RIA GI .45 too. Adjustable sights may be POA depending on user preference. Custom after market sights, again through customer preference, may be POA. But fixed 1911 sights on stock production are by and large 6 o'clock hold.

Not to argue but I'll just give my experience.

2 Colts, 3 Baers, 2 Browns, 2 Wilsons, 2 DW's, 1 S&W and 1 RIA (compact, not a GI). All have fixed sights and all of them shoot POA.

If I aim them at 6 o'clock...that's where they hit.

[FreeMan]

Originally Posted by toa514

1) The shots were off the same amount both 2-h standing and at rest.

2) I read 3 books on shooting before I touched the trigger, I already do most of what you say except grip strength which I've varied from semi-firm to extremely firm since this seems to be becoming more controversial.

3) I've fired 7-8 other pistols and rifles including 1911s in the last two weeks and this is the only gun that fires high and right, and off by a wide margin.

4) I appreciate general advice, but I prefer specific advice regarding the case at hand.

toa514, I'm not sure why you posted your question. You have rejected virtually every piece of advice you've been given and you seem to have already made up your mind that you have a faulty weapon. If that's the case, why are you wasting your time and ours seeking advice? I don't believe the books you have read and the dozen or so rounds you've thrown down range come close to the hundreds of hours of expertise you are scoffing at from those of us trying to help you. And, your rude responses are not appreciated. I took time to give you some advice I've earned over many years of shooting. You respond like a spoiled child. A person with your level of self control is likely to get into trouble if you start carrying a side arm. You may be one of the few Americans that I would recommend NOT becoming a shooter. Grow some backbone and learn to accept good advice or take up a less dangerous hobby is my revised recommendation.

[Dave Waits]

Originally Posted by toa514

You would be correct, if that target was at 25 yards as in your calculations. As I stated in my post and on the photo itself, it was at 30 feet, not 25 yards.

I know you all tend to pile on new people because most starters know little to nothing and have horrible form. Perhaps I am new and haven't even scratched the surface of shooting knowledge, but there's so much erroneous calculations, misinformation, failure to read original posts, and simple logic mistakes (4 inches off on rimfire target is not the same as 4 inches off on centerfire target at same distance?!) that I'm starting to think I should take all advice on this forum with gigantic grains of salt.

Sir, if you ha read the entire post you would have seen this;
"You can input any distance you want in inches and it works. It also works for elevation. Remember to raise POI shorten the front sight, to lower POI increase the front sight height. One more thing, the amount of change will increase the closer the target."

What I was referring to is the distance to the target, you can use any distance you want, measured in inches and the formula works.

What was given you in the way of information was neither misinformation or erroneous by others or myself. Using the right target and correct regulation(Of the sights) distance will yield better results for you. USGI sights are regulated to hit point of aim at 25 yards. Your GI-Model, like mine, came with USGI sights.

[toa514]

Originally Posted by FreeMan

toa514, I'm not sure why you posted your question. You have rejected virtually every piece of advice you've been given and you seem to have already made up your mind that you have a faulty weapon. If that's the case, why are you wasting your time and ours seeking advice? I don't believe the books you have read and the dozen or so rounds you've thrown down range come close to the hundreds of hours of expertise you are scoffing at from those of us trying to help you. And, your rude responses are not appreciated. I took time to give you some advice I've earned over many years of shooting. You respond like a spoiled child. A person with your level of self control is likely to get into trouble if you start carrying a side arm. You may be one of the few Americans that I would recommend NOT becoming a shooter. Grow some backbone and learn to accept good advice or take up a less dangerous hobby is my revised recommendation.

I didn't intend to be rude. Just because I don't agree with your answers, you call me a 'spoiled child' and 'low self control'? Isn't that more reflective of you? I take shooting extremely seriously. I read 3 books on gun handling and gun safety before I touched the trigger of my firearm. After I got the gun, I dry fired and practiced handling for 10 hours and many hundreds of trigger pulls before I even considered taking it to the range. I'd be willing to bet 99% of people aren't as anal about doing it the right way as I am.

I was well aware of the possible user errors that can contribute to shooting off target. In fact, that was the first thing I assumed was happening, like most people on this thread. I took steps to eliminate possible user bias by firing different guns, firing other 1911s, shooting from resting positions, and shooting at different distances. These in my opinion greatly lessened the possibility of recoil anticipation or trigger jerk and increased the possibility of mechanical error.

The only thing I refused to do was spend another few hundred dollars to fire another 500 rounds 'breaking the gun in' to hope that it corrects itself. To me, that's extremely poor craftsmanship. No other product category requires a 50% price premium as break in, and I won't accept it here either. If RIA had a reputation for shoddy work, I might have let it pass because is IS fairly cheap, but RIA doesn't have such a reputation.

I simply asked the specific question, "If it is a mechanical problem, what can it be?" instead of the general question, "my shots are off, what to do".

If you don't understand the question, refused to answer the question as stated, and are willing to be rude about it, please don't post any further.

[NIGHT AL]

I have read all of the post on this thread with interest, I kind of agree with FreeMan, except for the comments about bing a spoiled child. I don't think we get anywhere calling folks that we don't agree with names on this or any other forum., if you truly feel, that after so few rounds fired, your pistol is defective you should contact Advanced Tactical, here is the # to call, 1-775-537-1444 ask for Shawn, I heard that Arnel is gone for the summer ?...................I wish you good luck on finding the problem......

[toa514]

Originally Posted by TRSOtto

Not to argue but I'll just give my experience.

2 Colts, 3 Baers, 2 Browns, 2 Wilsons, 2 DW's, 1 S&W and 1 RIA (compact, not a GI). All have fixed sights and all of them shoot POA.

If I aim them at 6 o'clock...that's where they hit.

I just got off the phone with RIA, straight from the source.

1) The GIs are designed to shoot point of aim, not 6'oclock. This is as we expected.

2) The front sight blade is supposedly to be slightly higher than the rear blade, as in it should slightly cover the target.

Unfortunately, 2) doesn't explain my problem, as doing that will result in raising the POI even further off center.

However, if your GI was hitting a little low consistently, this would have explained it. So raise your aim a little, or file the front sight down a little if you want to always aim for even height in the sight picture of rear and front blades.

[FreeMan]

Originally Posted by NIGHT AL

I have read all of the post on this thread with interest, I kind of agree with FreeMan, except for the comments about bing a spoiled child. I don't think we get anywhere calling folks that we don't agree with names on this or any other forum., if you truly feel, that after so few rounds fired, your pistol is defective you should contact Advanced Tactical, here is the # to call, 1-775-537-1444 ask for Shawn, I heard that Arnel is gone for the summer ?...................I wish you good luck on finding the problem......

Yeah, "spoiled child" was unnecessary. I was careless. Please accept my apology OP and other readers.

[toa514]

Originally Posted by Dave Waits

What I was referring to is the distance to the target, you can use any distance you want, measured in inches and the formula works.

What was given you in the way of information was neither misinformation or erroneous by others or myself.

I'm sorry, I just can't let this go as an OCD engineer. Other readers may be confused.

If I'm grading a student's test, the 0.014 number is simply wrong. The first post gave an incorrect number without any work shown. That would have been worth 0 points. The second post used the right formula, but the wrong input (it's not 2" at 25 yards, it's close to 3" at 30 ft). That's worth partial credit but is still not correct.

This matters, because the resulting number (mm to file down rear sights) can't be too large. 3" at 30 ft = 1.5mm. I don't think the rear sight has 1.5mm of height to file down and still keep the notch (can't check, gun is already in fedex box). So a different strategy needs to be used, i.e. fix the mechanics of the gun itself or get new sights altogether, assuming no user error.

[toa514]

Originally Posted by FreeMan

Yeah, "spoiled child" was unnecessary. I was careless. Please accept my apology OP and other readers.

No worries, nothing personal. I really appreciate the posts on this thread, every single one of you posted to help me find the problem, and I did learn quite a bit.

I'll for sure update this thread when I get my GI back from RIA. If it turns out to be a mechanical problem I'll ask exactly what had to be replaced.

[NIGHT AL]

I have heard and read of some similar threads where they sent the pistol in because of a problem like this, they found that the frame was bad some how, they just replaced the pistol,and all is well..

[Flattoecory]

I stick the gun in a gun vise and see how she fires. That would completely eliminate user error. But I don't see Rock customer service saying no to fixing your gun. If there is something to fix anyway.

But as to the break in period...I've had some guns that require it, but not my rock. Then again I could care less how tight my groups are with my pistol. I am anal about my rifle shooting, but as long as my pistol keeps a decent group in the center mass I'm happy.

[Nccmret]

Folks, the OP wasn't asking for advice. He was (1) wanting affirmation that he had a bad pistol, (2) let everyone know of his superior qualifications and (3) demonstrate his superior intellect while informing those of us who merely shoot a lot don't really have any idea of what we're doing. You might want to just go shoot more and forget about the OP. I believe I will!

[1911A1FS]

Originally Posted by 19112474me

OP.......i believe your scientific mind is reading WAY too far into this. Did you try different grip? Shoulder levels? Breathing? Has your pistol made it past the 500 round break in period?...

You probably overlooked his comment in this post:

Secondly, maybe I'm new to handguns, but I am having reservations about spending $250 on 500 rounds of ammo on a $400 gun just to see whether it 'might' readjust itself. If that were the case, I wouldn't have bought this brand.

Per my own brand new RIA Super .38, the warranty card that came with it plainly states that it needs to go through the 500 round break-in.

[jsimmons]

Looks to me like you're heeling (anticipating the recoil). BEFORE sending the pistol to RIA for service, let at least one (two or three is better) experienced shooter handle the pistol and see if he/she has the same results. If the other shooter does in fact hit in the same area, it's the pistol. Otherwise, it's your shooting technique.

[Cappi]

Originally Posted by toa514

No worries, nothing personal. I really appreciate the posts on this thread, every single one of you posted to help me find the problem, and I did learn quite a bit.

I'll for sure update this thread when I get my GI back from RIA. If it turns out to be a mechanical problem I'll ask exactly what had to be replaced.

take several different brands of ammo on your range trip.
believe it or not, it can make a difference on POI.
not just elevation either, as one would expect with lighter and heavier gr wt bullets .
But windage as well ...with same grain wt and config bullets.
Some pistols will show more variation than others ..my Colt Gold Cup is one of them

I discovered that some time ago while gathering velocity data.
target at 20 yrds, 6 shot strings from the rest...
Rem UMC grouped 2" right of the bull.
Federal and Winchester was 1"-1.5" left .
Fed was slightly high and Win was slightly low

all the same day, all the same pistol (one of my most accurate ones)
a 3"+ difference in windage with different manufacture's 230gr ball ammo



side note on manufacture's sight regulation .
I personally use a 6 o'clock sight pic for ammo/pistol accuracy evaluations from the rest...a nickle sized bull on white target disappears when covering it
AND..It's the way I've always sighted since the '60s and my first BB-gun

this is a box stock Rock , 6 o'clock hold , 20 yrds








Put enough new pistols in your hand, Toa, and you'll discover that many won't shoot exact POA right out of the box ...regardless of price .
i reckon that's why they put adjustable sights on range pistols .
To tailor the sights to the ammo you're shooting



..L.T.A.

[girphoto]

Originally Posted by NIGHT AL

I have heard and read of some similar threads where they sent the pistol in because of a problem like this, they found that the frame was bad some how, they just replaced the pistol,and all is well..

[Dave Waits]

Originally Posted by toa514

I'm sorry, I just can't let this go as an OCD engineer. Other readers may be confused.

If I'm grading a student's test, the 0.014 number is simply wrong. The first post gave an incorrect number without any work shown. That would have been worth 0 points. The second post used the right formula, but the wrong input (it's not 2" at 25 yards, it's close to 3" at 30 ft). That's worth partial credit but is still not correct.

This matters, because the resulting number (mm to file down rear sights) can't be too large. 3" at 30 ft = 1.5mm. I don't think the rear sight has 1.5mm of height to file down and still keep the notch (can't check, gun is already in fedex box). So a different strategy needs to be used, i.e. fix the mechanics of the gun itself or get new sights altogether, assuming no user error.

With all due respect to your Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder, I also added that you can plug in any distance you like. The measurement I give was indicative of a standard 25 yard correction. Your correction for 30feet is .0325". Which is very large on USGI sights due to the fact that, as I stated, they are regulated to shoot POA at 25 yards. Since I've already provided the formula and shown how it works this tells me that you have basic Reading Comprehension difficulties.

So:
Failure to follow simple instruction- 0 points
Failure to understand basic English-0 points
Failure to do simple research correctly- 0 points (See; Note 1)

Note 1: One of the first things everybody does with a RIA GI-Model is to replace the sights. This has always been the number 1 problem with the USGI-Style 1911. The original sights were designed for combat, not accuracy.

[Cappi]

Originally Posted by Dave Waits

The original sights were designed for combat, .

and guys with really really good eyes...
and bright sunny days...
with the sun behind you ...



actually, i find the small sights are very good for shooting from a rest ..in great light ..due to being small with narrow aperture there is less room for error


..L.T.A.

[TonyRumore]

The lug on the bottom of the barrel is probably too short, along with the link. That is preventing the rear of the barrel from seating completely upward against the slide when it's in battery. If you fix that, it won't shoot high anymore. Fixing the sights is just a bandaid for an ill fitting barrel.

Tony

[NIGHT AL]

..................................http://www.m1911.org/technic30.htm......

[nogoodnamesleft]

Originally Posted by NIGHT AL

..................................http://www.m1911.org/technic30.htm......

Ah, shaving with Occam's Razor are we?