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Military sidearm replacement

28K views 252 replies 90 participants last post by  Kodadek 
#1 ·
Which pistol would you personally like to see our troops carry. For the sake of this sight, and I know it sucks, but let's say the 1911 had it's time and choose a double stack pistol. I know this issue is controversial. Most people were angered that the 1911 would be replaced and I am one of those people. However, a double stacked weapon with less felt recoil just makes more sense these days.The beretta is a fine sidearm but I would like to see something more modern. I know some version of the beretta will be in circulation for quite some time. My choice as a replacement would be the Smith and Wesson M&P line of pistols, in 9mm. The pistol holds two more rounds, and comes in at about a pound lighter. Also, there is no need to pull the trigger for disassembly, a huge plus when there are thousands of people who will be learning how to take it down. Moreover, these pistol's are made in AMERICA, so it only makes sense to stop forking money over to the Italians, and make the M&P series our sidearm for years to come. What would you choose and why? (remember, no 1911:eek: because most people would probably choose it here;).)
 
#2 ·
I would take a para ordnance DAO double stack in 9mm. I would ask Colt to slightly modify it so that it had a single action trigger, make the grip diameter thinner (so it would hold about seven rounds), then I would see if they could find a cartridge that was more powerful than the wimpy 9mm - one of the top man stopper rounds (Something like the .45 acp).

I think a Armed Forces with the best Fighter Planes, Aircraft Carriers and Stealth Bombers in the World should also have the best pistol in the world.
 
#3 ·
HAHA! Same Mistakes...same enemic Caliber! Proof positive that some people never learn. Even to the point of removing the one viable,effective sidearm available out of the equation.

These 'Touchy-Feely', 'Make me feel better cause I like the 9mm' threads are getting tiresome.
 
#4 ·
haha! Same mistakes...same enemic caliber! Proof positive that some people never learn. Even to the point of removing the one viable,effective sidearm available out of the equation.

These 'touchy-feely', 'make me feel better cause i like the 9mm' threads are getting tiresome.
+1
 
#194 ·
I'm not sure I agree with that. I've got a 10mm Kimber Eclipse and love it. It does take a little getting used to when shooting full power loads (I use 10.7gr of Blue Dot with a 180gr bullet that comes in around 1300fps) but nothing crazy. I've been shooting it the past few months in IDPA. While I definitely am not as fast with it as a 9mm, I'd be about the same in CDP. Using a faster powder, I can come close to that and with about the same felt recoil as a good .45 load.
 
#8 ·
Gentlemen, as long as the United States follows the Hague Convention(No, not the Geneva Convention like most mistakenly think) as a signatory and is relegated to FMJ bullets, the 9mm will be a non-starter. With FMJ bullets, the biggest hole wins.

While the 40S&W would be a slight improvement over the 9 in FMJ, the answer is still the biggest hole.

Then there's the platform, the Beretta has problems caused by the same reasons the S&W M&P would. Being a DA High-Stack, there are more parts and more to go wrong. More to jam up in a fine-sand environment.

The high-capacity thing is more small-bore thinking. With a 9mm you need more rounds because on average it requires more hits. Talked to too many returning vets to think differently. With the 45ACP that's not so much a problem.

What Uncle-sam needs to do is contract for 1911A1s in 45ACP built to the same original specs as the first Military contract. A nice, slightly loose, fully functional, reliable weapon. Only change needed would be to go to Colts' Hi-Visibility Fixed Combat Sights.

The WWII-era 1911A1s worked just fine in any environment they were subjected to be it, jungle, desert or temperate climate. I was very fortunate in that I talked to many WWII vets over the years. I can honestly state that, when talking about weapons, I never heard a bad thing about the 1911A1, in any Theater of Operations, from those who used them. I can also say the same for my war,Vietnam.
 
#28 ·
Dave,

DITTO + A WHOLE LOT MORE!!!

It would be nice to get back to the original design concept of one shot one kill, or as close to it as possible. The whole side arm concept is "personal defense" maximum firepower, compact size and reliability under any conditions and under 25 yards. The term "personal Defense" has gone by the way of the Mil-Spec. the definition is to narrow and confining, it doesn't allow for personal tastes. Funny it's not supposed to. The 45acp and the 1911 were developed to provide exactly that concept, then and now. If you don't think that’s true, then why is it that every major organizational specialty unit that deals with "personal defense" as part of their daily job description (and has an out on the political/ financial strangle hold) goes back to the 1911.

Dave, I too have been in Uncle Sams service in one capacity or another for some 37 years now and I have never heard an ill statement concerning the 1911. Oddly, from the vets I know who have had the pleasure of carrying one in duty, it always brings an expression of fondness and an easy smile with a comment "I remember my 1911, that was a damn fine gun."
 
#13 ·
We need to return to the 45.If the 1911 won't return,we can keep the base operating platform and go to the HK USP or HK45 and gain up to a 50% capacity increase.Sucks we aren't back 100% American made like the 1911 but it is close with the HK45 since they're at least built here.HK has always been a military and LE contractor with civilian sales just some spare coin,they know how to build tough stuff to live in these environments.
 
#16 ·
Sorry to interject gentlemen, but I think you guys are overestimating the raw stopping power of the venerated .45 acp. "They all fall to hardball" is a very old way of thinking. Not surprising seeing as this is the 1911 forum. I do agree that bigger is better but I don't think you'd be able to tell whether you've been hit by a 9mm or a .45. It's not like you'd get hit in the heart or lungs with a 9mm, think to yourself, Aw, it felt like a 9mm so i shouldn't worry. The difference between the two is something like 2.5 millimeters and usually about 400 fps. This is big when you get the old "if it were a millimeter to the right, you'd be dead" sort of situation, which can be crucial, but bottom line is pistols suck, and even with modern JHP's, (which the military won't use) neither cartridge is something that will take a threat down guaranteed.. Take all things into consideration please. Bigger is better but capacity is important so is the ability for all shooters to be able to control and get a good grip on the pistol. I know some of you old timers will never be convinced that the .45 isn't the end all cartridge, but I'm outspoken and if I can convince at least one old top that 9mm is no pea shooter, I'd be happy! Sorry for the token caliber debate, it's a dirty job but someone has got to do it.:D:mummy:
So you come to the 1911 forum, tell us we can't pick a 1911, then tell us we can't pick a .45. What more do you want from us? :rofl:
 
#17 ·
Ive heard too many stories from WWII, korea and vietnam vets about how the .45 will put you down and keep you down, and too many others from iraq vets about how the 9mm pokes holes in people and they keep coming to believe the 9mm is good for anything but punching holes in paper.
 
#24 ·
The 9mm works just fine with hollow points. It's with FMJ that it sucks. Same goes for any mid-caliber cartridge except maybe the .357 Magnum.
 
#18 · (Edited)
For those of you against 9mm, do you know the history of the Colt Commander? ;)

If they military was really going to dump the M9 (they just ordered a couple hundred thousand more of them, so they are not), the replacement would more than likely be a polymer and striker fired, or polymer and SA/DA. Whatever it is, it will have a safety.

If we are talking American made, that only really leaves the FNP/FNX in 9mm, or the M&P 9 with the thumb safety.

But that assumes that about 200k M9's either don't get made, or are thrown into a woodchipper.
 
#22 ·
And they could make several different loads for it so when you wanted to "reach out" you can. You probably wouldn't even need a rifle if we go the right sidearm.

Maybe a Taurus Judge?? The 3" version, naturally.;)
 
#23 ·
As a firm believer in the 1911, I guess I cannot vote on this.

Brings to mind a long-ago interview with a famous auto racing driver who, when asked who (other than himself) he would like to win the Indianapolis 500 due to his own car being out of the race, responded: "If I can't win, I don't want anyone to win".
 
#27 ·
Anyone who like the M9 more then a good ole 1911 has issues in my book, that or you are def shooting the wrong 1911.

The Marine Corps still has a few 1911s floating around. We also still use some JHPs for some of our weapons, however it has become rare to find those rounds. Last JHPs I saw was a few mags of 5.56mm for my M16A4 in Iraq.

First and foremost I would pick a 1911 for my brothers/sisters. I want to give them the best pistol to keep them alive. In my book a 9mm will never fit that bill.

Since the OP has banned the pickin of the best pistol ever made, I would have to pick either the M&P 45 or the H&K 45. If I can alter designs then I would take the M&P 45 design made with H&K materials. The polymer on an H&K feels more rugged and rigged than the M&P. I prefer the rugged.

-Eric
 
#36 ·
I didn't read all the post so if this gun has already been mentioned, just count it as my vote. lol The Springfield XD or XDM in 9mm or .45ACP. These guns are work horses. I have two of them in 9mm and have not had a single failure in hundreds of rounds.
 
#38 ·
We all seem to forget one reason our military went to LIGHTER cartridges -- they are lighter.

Carry 100 rounds of nine, or 100 rounds of 45. Carry 250 rounds of 308 or 250 rounds of 223. Now, which would you want to lug around -- along with all your other equipment?

I suspect a return to 45 would mean fewer rounds carried, as would a return to 308.

Since true aimed fire is fairly rare in the military - not everyone is really a "sharpshooter" - it appears our military still operates of the "volume of fire" principal.

I like carrying a 1911 -- but, it's for personal self defense, so I have two extra mags. No matter what some folks say, I am not in, and don't want to be in any sort of war zone.

I really think the requirements there are different. Remember, we don't seem to have ammo bearers, or water bearers anymore.

Heck, weren't some folks looking to the 5.7x28 as a possible military round? Don't some folks still use it?

Both military and police organizations seem to be looking for lighter, possible dual purpose rounds, that can do the job.

Will the quest end? I doubt it. Lighter load, more ammo, seems to allow both military and police to operate in the field longer, and be a more independent group, while still attempting to achieve stated goals.

I think that's one reason we will not see a wholesale return to the 308 or 45ACP.
 
#43 ·
I'm pretty sure that basic military pistol training pretty much covers "The bullets go in this end, and this is the dangerous end." so giving those folks the maximum number of tries to score hits probably isn't a bad plan, IMHO. Those that can choose what they can carry will choose whatever they want that will do the job, as evident by what sits in the HSLD folks holsters, the rest will complain that they are stuck "with this heavy M9 POS" that they never really trained with unless their MOS required more than basic pistol training.

The pistol will always be a "its better than nothing!" compromise in a war zone, so we should focus on getting the troops something that is as light as possible to do the job, is easy to maintain, and low maintenance. Something that can be put together in a hurry if need be, with interchangeable parts between each pistol for easy of manufacture.

Problem is, the military just bought a very large amount of M9's so those won't be going away anytime soon, especially with budget cuts coming. Trying to replace the M9 with something else right now is like trying to replace the M4 with something else completely different, too.
 
#40 ·
Nato?

Well I thought they went 9mm to put us in line with our NATO allies and that was the reason for the switch...anyway, since this is one of those what would you choose threads I would go back to the 1911 in .45 for our fighting sidearm as they have already been proven in Combat...
 
#46 ·
Well I thought they went 9mm to put us in line with our NATO allies and that was the reason for the switch...anyway, since this is one of those what would you choose threads I would go back to the 1911 in .45 for our fighting sidearm as they have already been proven in Combat...
As long as NATO uses the 9mm --- tough! All the whining and boo hooing in the world will not change a thing. Don't like anything about the 9mm. Have had a few back in the 80's including a Sig 210, P88 and a few Sig high cap models. The 210 was pretty nice but traded it because it went up so much in value in value! Wish I still had it because it went up a lot more lol...

From a clean slate---the .40 because of the ability to use a higher cap mag. I don't even carry a .45 1911 in the field because it is pretty useless compared to a my 10mm. Still have the primary carry guns in .45 but the targets for that are easier to stop than what I face in the field lol!!
 
#45 ·
Why get rid of a product that works? There was ZEO reasons to retire the 1911-A1. The 1911-A1 was extremely dependable as JMB designed it. The ONLY improvements needed were updated sights and an ambi-safety. NO polymer-will ever have the presence of the 1911-A1
Well damn, glad nobody ever died by getting shot with a polymer-framed sissy pistol
 
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