Drop It!!

[sergeant69]

Originally Posted by L84CABO

I must say that I find Walter's krumudgeny responses pretty entertaining

I picture a 65 year old man stadning on his porch yelling, "Get off my lawn...Damn kids!"

huh. i picture a clint eastwood type (attitude wise) as in GRAN TORINO, determined to do the right thing despite all the wussy wannabes. and yes he yelled "get of my lawn" too.

[master gunner]

Originally Posted by L84CABO

I must say that I find Walter's krumudgeny responses pretty entertaining

I picture a 65 year old man stadning on his porch yelling, "Get off my lawn...Damn kids!"

Well then; I guess you would giggle till you wet your pants with me.

[Taipan]

Drop it???? Noooo...Drop him!

Taipan.

[sousana]

I would follow directions to a tee and attempt to remain alive. I would only act if and when I believed an innocent's life was at risk.

[GunBugBit]

Originally Posted by Ringolevio

Neumann wrote:
I wonder if that's where Alvin C. York learned that tactic?

Indeed I believe he cited hunting experience as his reasoning for picking off the advancing German soldiers from rear to front.

[GunBugBit]

The scenario you paint has few details. My main question is: do I have a route of escape? Because my number one concern is not to be a hero and take the bad guy down, but to get out of there and use my gun to defend myself if the bad guy tries to prevent my exit.

[Jim_L]

I posted this on another thread about pretty much the same topic.

As soon as anyone with a gun "orders" anyone anywhere I kill him. Up to that point, I'm still not sure but I am leaning toward killing them w/o warning. One of the reasons being they may very well kill someone anyway..or 10 minutes later.

I just watched an episode of cops the other night and 3 morons (one driver, one gunman and one money grabber) robbed a store. A pretty amped up gunman standing on the counter waving a .45 around while BG #2 opened the register and took the cash.

The cops arrived and while reviewing the video got the call that the same crew had robbed a doughnut shop and shots had been fired at the staff. When they got to the second scene guess what? You got it. The crew was now robbing a third store and rounding people up when the now city wide swarm of LEO's happened on it and chased them out.

It sure looks like if someone starts gun play you better put them to sleep or learn to live with your inaction.

[nhsmoker]

For me the whole situation would really depend on the vibe I was getting from the situation at hand. If it seemed like the clerk is just going to give the bg the money and the person would leave, I wouldn't even draw my weapon after all it's only money. If one the other hand The clerk was trying not to give up the money and or I felt the bg was legitimately going to hurt or kill someone I would evaluate the situation differently. I am certainly in no rush to draw my weapon on somebody but I do carry for a reason.

[USMM guy]

Originally Posted by master gunner

Kill him.

If you wait "until"; you have waited too long.

I would drop them with no hesitation.

[higgy1911]

While I don't feel any moral obligation, I do feel my personal honor would not allow me to stand by and do nothing. However thousands of variables determine what action is called for. If I felt like there was a really good chance that the robber might not shoot anyone, like maybe he wasn't pointing his gun directly at someone, or was acting in such a way that he seemed unlikely to shoot(on purpose or accidently) then I might not involve myself. If its a person acting crazy and aggressive, I would probably try to do something.

There are, for me, worse things than dying.

[USMM guy]

Originally Posted by higgy1911

While I don't feel any moral obligation, I do feel my personal honor would not allow me to stand by and do nothing. However thousands of variables determine what action is called for. If I felt like there was a really good chance that the robber might not shoot anyone, like maybe he wasn't pointing his gun directly at someone, or was acting in such a way that he seemed unlikely to shoot(on purpose or accidently) then I might not involve myself. If its a person acting crazy and aggressive, I would probably try to do something.

There are, for me, worse things than dying.

There are definatley a lot worse things than dying!

[BDA45]

http://www.policeone.com/columnists/...Blood-lessons/

[JerryM]

There are, for me, worse things than dying.]

Yes, for you, but if you have a wife and children there are not many thing worse for them than their husband and father getting killed.
Anyone who does not weigh the situation and options, and just wants to be a hero is derelict in his responsibility to his family.

The link provided by BDA45 also shows some important points.

I have some good friends that are in LE and SWAT teams. I have done a little training with an agency that was training new men before going to the Academy. That does not make me any way competent in LE. However, in sometimes shooting with officers as they qualify, and personally knowing several active duty officers, I conclude that most are not very good with their handguns. Some have to have to try again to qualify.

I also know that a fair number do not know the laws regarding carrying firearms. I do not believe the average LEO is more competent to make judgments off duty than I am. I think that the link indicates that they have zero training in such situations.

Jerry

[BDA45]

Originally Posted by JerryM

There are, for me, worse things than dying.]

Yes, for you, but if you have a wife and children there are not many thing worse for them than their husband and father getting killed.
Anyone who does not weigh the situation and options, and just wants to be a hero is derelict in his responsibility to his family.

The link provided by BDA45 also shows some important points.

I have some good friends that are in LE and SWAT teams. I have done a little training with an agency that was training new men before going to the Academy. That does not make me any way competent in LE. However, in sometimes shooting with officers as they qualify, and personally knowing several active duty officers, I conclude that most are not very good with their handguns. Some have to have to try again to qualify.

I also know that a fair number do not know the laws regarding carrying firearms. I do not believe the average LEO is more competent to make judgments off duty than I am. I think that the link indicates that they have zero training in such situations.

Jerry

I don't quite follow all you wrote Jerry. Is it that on a sliding scale of competence in the instance related in the link I provided - that the off-duty cop was sub-par to most CCW permit holders?

As I read through most of the commentary, no one seemed to notice in the OP hypothetical whether the first criminal was alone. Is available cover closer to or farther away from the robber? No one seems to consider that their one shot or several may still put others at more risk when the criminal doesn't go down before launching a barrage of stray shots of his own - and that he may never have fired. Quite frankly, I don't know whether I'd be more worried about the armed robber or the CCW responses. They are both unknown quantities in terms of capability. Taking control of a highly volatile situation isn't just drawing and firing. No assessment might make that pink spray yours. My safety and my loved ones safety is up to me. I don't necessarily believe that someone else's failure to protect themselves places a burden on me to act without first assessing what is actually happening and how many other people I put at unnecessary risk - myself and my family included.

[jmchaney]

Here is a link to a situation just as the OP described in his hypothetical case.

http://www.myfoxhouston.com/story/18661869/chl

[LeatherFace]

Depends on what kind of weapon the Robber has. If the weapon is a non-firearm, I'd feel safe telling him to DROP IT before putting one in his head. If the Robber's weapon is a firearm I'd wait until it's in a safe direction and then put one in his head. I wouldn't say anything because of the reach a firearm has.

[JerryM]

Originally Posted by BDA45

I don't quite follow all you wrote Jerry. Is it that on a sliding scale of competence in the instance related in the link I provided - that the off-duty cop was sub-par to most CCW permit holders?

As I read through most of the commentary, no one seemed to notice in the OP hypothetical whether the first criminal was alone. Is available cover closer to or farther away from the robber? No one seems to consider that their one shot or several may still put others at more risk when the criminal doesn't go down before launching a barrage of stray shots of his own - and that he may never have fired. Quite frankly, I don't know whether I'd be more worried about the armed robber or the CCW responses. They are both unknown quantities in terms of capability. Taking control of a highly volatile situation isn't just drawing and firing. No assessment might make that pink spray yours. My safety and my loved ones safety is up to me. I don't necessarily believe that someone else's failure to protect themselves places a burden on me to act without first assessing what is actually happening and how many other people I put at unnecessary risk - myself and my family included.

My primary purpose was to respond to the point that there were worse things than death. That is a rather cavalier approach in such a situation as it does not take into account those who depend upon the person who is thinking about interceding. Personally I doubt that that poster really thinks he would rather be a hero than alive. If he has a family I am sure they would rather he be alive as husband, father, and breadwinner than a hero.

My discussion regarding LE was that even though one is an officer he does not necessarily have better qualifications to make assessments than some of us. I do appreciate LEOs but know that for many their qualifications do not make their opinions better than some others not LEOs.

The link in my view confirms that belief.

Jerry