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  #1  
Old 06-27-2012, 02:58 PM
Gilliac Gilliac is offline
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Dan Wesson Guardian in 9x23?




Hi, guys. First post - long time lurker!

Hope this is the right place to post

I have built two fullsize 1911s in 9x23 (one an ancient AMT frame/Springfield 9mm slide/Nowlin barrel and one Rock Island 9mm/Bar-Sto barrel) and I think it is THE BEST 1911 caliber (yeah, I know I'll be flamed for that!)
I have a new DW Guardian in 9mm and am wanting to convert to 9x23. Two questions come up.

1. Most of the 9x23 pistolsmiths don't recommend ramped barrels for the 9x23but that is not an option as the Guardian came that way.
2. The 9x23 imparts about 50% more momentum to the slide/barrel assembly than a +P 45 ACP. I am worried about the stress on the aluminum frame.

Has anybody done this conversion or shot a lot of hot 45 ACP thru an aluminum frame DW/Kimber/Colt?

Anyone have a ramped 9x23 that runs well?

Thanks for any input you can provide.

Gil
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  #2  
Old 06-27-2012, 03:09 PM
sbeatty1983 sbeatty1983 is offline
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I asked the same question about converting my Kimber Aegis to 9x23 a while back but didnt get many responses. I ended up just going part way and doing a .38 super conversion. I see no reason why a ramped 9x23 wouldnt run just as well as a ramped .38 super. As far as how well an aluminum frame would hold up to 9x23, I dont know. I know springfield produced a few light weight 9x23s in their custom shop about 10 years ago. I would assume its safe but it would probably be one of those carry alot but shoot a little guns.
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  #3  
Old 06-27-2012, 05:49 PM
dakota1911 dakota1911 is offline
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To impart a clarification I assume 9x23 is the 9x23 Winchester round. Remember that the 38 Super is a 9x23SR where SR means semi rimmed, and yes the pressures are usually less than the 9x23 Winchester.

Now I am more of a 10mm guy in the non .45 ACP 1911 world, but my friends who play with 9x23 Winchester all reload it, so often there is not a set round to compare like Winchester 230 grain FMJ in .45 ACP in the .45 world.

Just my thoughts.
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  #4  
Old 06-27-2012, 06:09 PM
HAIL CAESAR HAIL CAESAR is offline
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Unless you are taking about pallets of 9x23 ammo, the aluminum frame will last at least 20k+.

The ramped barrel will work fine.
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  #5  
Old 06-27-2012, 06:41 PM
Gilliac Gilliac is offline
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Thanks

Yes, I was referring to the Winchester 9x23. The standard factory loading is 124 grain Silvertip or 125 JSP at 1450 fps. I get right at 1440 to 1460 from the two 5 inch guns. And while the Silvertip may be old tech (no polymer tips or solid copper bullet) at these velocities it is a equal to most factory (lighter weight bullet) 357 mag ammo. It won't throw much over 147 grains well. But if I need something heavy, I have an RZ-10 to hunt with.

I would like to hear from anyone who has done a 9x23 on a lightweight frame, and I have seen several negative comments about ramped barrels in full length rounds like 45ACP or 9x23. Never had a ramped barrel before and have zero experience with them so I worry about hacking up such a nice piece. If the AMT had not run well, it would have made a great fishing sinker!

Thanks agin for any info.
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  #6  
Old 06-27-2012, 06:56 PM
sbeatty1983 sbeatty1983 is offline
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Ive had a ramped .38 super kimber in the past. I put about 7k through it before I sold it. Never had a feed issue associated with the ramped barrel. Also a ramped barrel is going to give you a better supported chamber.
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  #7  
Old 06-28-2012, 11:47 AM
Marcus99 Marcus99 is offline
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To add to your dilemna, IIRC Colt also chambered some 1911's in 9mm Steyr which is dimensionally the same as 9x23. Perhaps another route to consider.
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  #8  
Old 06-28-2012, 12:00 PM
sbeatty1983 sbeatty1983 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marcus99 View Post
To add to your dilemna, IIRC Colt also chambered some 1911's in 9mm Steyr which is dimensionally the same as 9x23. Perhaps another route to consider.
the 9mm steyr operated at MUCH less pressures than the 9x23 winchester.
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  #9  
Old 06-28-2012, 02:48 PM
superdude superdude is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gilliac View Post

I would like to hear from anyone who has done a 9x23 on a lightweight frame, and I have seen several negative comments about ramped barrels in full length rounds like 45ACP or 9x23. Never had a ramped barrel before and have zero experience with them so I worry about hacking up such a nice piece.
Why are ramped barrels with long cartridges supposed to be a problem? Please be specific so we can evaluate the issue.

What you're asking is how well an aluminum frame holds up to heavy recoil. The answer is: not as well/long as a steel frame. It will have a shorter life, but how much shorter is difficult to quantify. You can take measures to reduce the impact by using shock buffers or by some other methods (Sprinco guide rod) or reducing the recoil impulse by practicing with lower recoiling ammo and saving the heavy stuff for serious work.

The 9X23 does not require a ramped barrel when using Winchester brass as it was designed to handle the pressure with non-ramped barrels. Reliability wise I doubt that the 9X23 can tell the difference between ramped or unramped barrels. The exception being the shape of the non-ramped barrel's feed ramp. If properly throated it should run anything. I have a slight bias for ramped barrels for this reason. They are less picky (in my experience) to bullet nose shape issues when dealing with feeding. Keep in mind this is an opinion and reflects my experience.

I've built two aluminum frame guns for 9X23 / 38 SuperComp / 38 Super both intended for very heavy loads. But they don't have many rounds on them - carried a lot, shot little. They both have ramped barrels. Both run 100% reliable.

I've also run 9X23 through non-ramped guns with no feeding problems. To be honest, I don't know what to recommend. I've elected for ramped barrels due to experience and bias, but I can't say that a non-ramped barrel is less desirable, and I suspect that opinions vary on this.

I personally run Starline 38 SuperComp brass through my 9X23 chambered defensive guns - loaded to 9X23 or better performance levels. I use excess pressure 38 SuperComp loads only with ramped barrels for better support because that brass is not as thick as 9X23 Winchester brass and it requires a supported chamber when loaded to that performance level. The only real reason I chambered them for 9X23 was in case I wanted that level of high performance with a factory load.
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  #10  
Old 06-28-2012, 04:24 PM
Gilliac Gilliac is offline
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Superdude

Thanks for the reply. What little I know about the 9x23 I first learned at the old Pistolsmith website when Dane Burns still ran it. Burns was a great fan of the 9x23 round but thought that a ramped barrel was both unnecessary with Winchester brass and less reliable. He has sold the site and is not curently taking new work in his shop.

I have also seen several discussions on this forum where a lot of people felt ramped barrels were not reliable (and just as many who felt otherwise!)

I know that Brown uses a frame insert instead of a ramped barrel in his Lightweight Kobra Carry, however if that means anything is debatable, maybe he just wanted to save from having to make a different barrel from the steel version.

Anyway, I bought the DW with the intent of building a lightweight 9x23 for carry, I will practice with the steel guns. Its just that when I got the thing, it was so much nicer than the other two guns I converted (I am not a gunsmith but I do own a hacksaw and a vise!) that I began to find reasons to not do the project!

On another thread I will post some picture of what I had to do to get the old AMT to run in 9x23. The Rock Island was a rechambered barrel, cut ejector, check extractor, load and shoot. Both feed flawless with a mixed bag of 38 Super magazines and the AMT will even eat 9x19 with just a spring change (this isn't a good thing to do, as it is hard on the extractor but it does work.) I have a Springfield 9x19 barrel for the AMT for cheap(er) practice.

I am going to rechamber the DW barrel, fit an AFTEC extractor and modify the ejector. If it runs on WW 124 Silvertips, I can get a lot of weight off my old hip. If not, I will send it back to DW for a new barrel and ejector and either try to get comfortable with 9x19 for CCW or keep the old heavy AMT.

Thanks for helping me thru my anxiety attack!!
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  #11  
Old 06-28-2012, 05:28 PM
superdude superdude is online now
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aluminum frames and some hollow point bullets are not compatible. I had teeth marks in my aluminum frame when i tried some factory loads with Barnes 45 ACP copper bullets. They have a sharp corner on their HP bullets, and they dug into the frame. Needless to say, the gun jammed as well. By the way, they hit below the ramped barrel cutout when feeding from a fully loaded 8 round magazine. I converted the gun to 38 Super because the Super does not nosedive as far and all the rounds stay on the ramped barrel's ramp even from a 10 round magazine (in my experience).
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  #12  
Old 06-28-2012, 07:54 PM
grendelbane grendelbane is offline
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I am a bit confused, you first post states that the 9x23mm imparts about 150% more momentum to the slide/barrel assembly than a +p .45 ACP.

I do not believe this to be the case. While the pressure of the 9x23mm Winchester cartridge is much higher, the momentum imparted to the slide/barrel assembly is going to be similar.

125 x 1460 is not much different from 800 x 230. Now, the pressure of the burning gasses as they leave the muzzle will be much higher in the 9x23mm, and the slide/barrel assemblies of the two cartridges may vary slightly. Still, I think you will find them very close to one another. My 9x23mm runs quite well with a #16 recoil spring, as does my .45 ACP.

Since slide velocity is going to be similar, and the .45 aluminum frames provide a decent service life, (shorter than steel, but still pretty good), I would think that an aluminum frame 9x23mm would last about the same number of rounds also. (Not the barrel, the 9x23mm barrel will definitely have a shorter life).

I don't use ramped barrels, but I see no reason why one wouldn't work.

My 9x23mm will actually break 1500 FPS with factory Silvertips on a hot day. I think it is a great cartridge.
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  #13  
Old 06-29-2012, 01:15 AM
Gilliac Gilliac is offline
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grendelbane,

You are correct, I meant energy not momentum. Momentum between the parts going forward (bullet and gases) has to equal the momentum of the parts going backward. So, if you assume the only parts going backward are the slide and barrel (not really true as the frame and your hand also enter the equations) you can work out some relative energy numbers. Note that the claim was not 150 % more but 150 % (50 % more). Arenít most commanders sprung about two to four pounds heavier than the same caliber five inch slide?

Again, my experience with the 9x23 was heavily biased by reading evevything Dane Burns wrote on the cartridge. Good or bad, his advice allowed me to build two five inch 9x23 that have both been flawless - at least in function. Their appearance a completely difference issue.

Dane wrote that a Commander was not a good platform as "The recoil impulse is very quick on the 5" 9x23 guns. That is controlled by barrel weight and slide weight and spring weight among other things. When the gun is shorter it cycles faster. Controlling the cycle is an issue with full house 9x23 loads." And, he really didn't like ramped barrels! Add to that the aluminum frame and I wonder if I am over my head.

Anyway, guess in about a month, I will know for sure if I can make it work. I ordered a new reamer, AFTEC extractor and both 18# and 20# Commander length springs.

I don't reload much anymore and generally use just the two Winchester loads for carry. I keep one extra magazine of the JSPs for God knows why, but it makes me feel better. Guess if I get into a fight with a large oak tree, the solids will come in handy!

I took the slide off, mounted just the (longer) 9x23 barrel with the slide stop and pushed some rounds out of the magazine by hand. Doing this rather simple test, the factory (Winchester) JHP and JSP do not seem to impact the frame but hit the ramp. What happens under recoil and with the round impacted by the slide may be very different.

If the frame below the ramp starts getting chewed up, I have an idea I have been wanting to try. I am going to drill out the area with a tapered drill, spinweld a round, matching tepered, high carbon steel pin into the hole, remachine for a non-ramped barrel and have the frame refinished in hard chrome. Sure wish I had an old aluminum AMT frame to practice on!

Wish me luck and I will post pictures - good or bad.

Gil
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  #14  
Old 06-29-2012, 07:40 AM
grendelbane grendelbane is offline
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My fat fingers made me type 150%! 150% more momentum with an 125 grain bullet would put velocities well into traditional rifle range!

Now, the timing at which that impulse occurs would be different between the 2 cartridges. This might make the gun operate a bit different, but the impact to the frame should be similar.

I have a small radius EGW firing pin stop on my 9x23mm, and it seems to help tame the beast some what.

All my 9x23mm, and hot .38 Super experience has been with Gov't models and clones. I have an old .38 Super Lightweight Commander, which has been 100% reliable, but I only put reasonable loads through it.

Good luck with your project, the world needs more 9x23mms!
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  #15  
Old 06-29-2012, 11:05 AM
dakota1911 dakota1911 is offline
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A good read on 9mms, although it does not have CUP pressures is:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9_mm_caliber
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  #16  
Old 08-07-2012, 09:43 PM
m60a3 m60a3 is offline
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Probably a little out of date but I was searching for 9x23 data and came on this thread. I shoot a RIA 38 Super with the unsupported barrel and a Fusion kit gun in 38 Super with a ramped barrel. I load 38 Super, 38 Super Comp, and 9x23 cases for both guns. I load to the full 1.280 oal, and mostly load heavy 147-158 gr jacketed bullets. MY observation is that all cartridges nose dive and hit the feed ramp lower than you would think. The longer the oal the higher they hit, the higher they hit the better they feed. I have also removed the long ejectors on both my guns and run standard length ejectors. I also run flat bottom firing pin retainers, and Sprinco buffers. Both my guns shoot 9x23 loads in unmodified 38 Super chambers. The only problem I've had is the Fusion won't chamber the larger diameter 357 mag bullets when loaded to full 1.280 oal. I mostly shoot 9x23 in that gun and the inside taper won't let me load anything heavier than the 147 gr XTP. I'm having best succes with heavy handloads using Bluedot. I would think the biggest problem running an alloy frame would be feed ramp wear. I'm planning on building an alloy frame commander length gun myself, and it will have a ramped barrel. Small rifle primers are of course a necessity when loading hot Super or standard 9x23 loads. Primer protrusion into the firing pin hole is the major problem reloading for the 9x23. All the research I've done I've never read of anyone rupturing a real WInchester 9x23 casing weather ramped or unramped barrel, the brass is incredibly strong. I use a 9mm Luger resizing die for both Super and 9x23 brass. As long as they feed and chamber properly why work the brass more than you have to.
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  #17  
Old 08-08-2012, 10:05 AM
Jeffro135 Jeffro135 is online now
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Grendelbane hit on one of my favorite "techniques" of taming fast moving slides. That is using the square-bottom (EGW) firing pin stop. I just LIGHTLY take the edge off of the leading edge and basically leave it squared. I find (and I realize this is subjective) that it greatly tames the felt recoil and should (again in my opinion) reduce possible battering of the frame and slide.
Someone suggested shok-buffs. I personally do not use them, as I feel that if your 1911 has springs which are consistent with your loads they are unnecessary.
CAUTION: HOWEVER if you do choose to use shok-buffs, only use them on the range, and NOT in a weapon you will need to depend on. Use them if you choose on the range, then remove the shok-buff for "serious possibilities". If a shok-buff comes apart, it can seriously lock up your weapon.
I have a few 9x23 1911s with ramped barrels and have experienced no negative effects whatsoever. It is a great round.
Enjoy and be careful,
Jeffro
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  #18  
Old 08-10-2012, 03:43 PM
TheTinMan TheTinMan is offline
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FWIW Springfield's Custom Shop built a 4" 1911 for me with an alloy frame. Dave Williams insisted on a ramped barrel, and I think he was right. Never had any feeding problems with RN or Hornady XTP bullets (only hollow points I've tried) or Winchester Silvertips. Either that or a steel frame insert.

Also, even though they set the pistol up with a dual spring recoil system, Winchester white box (which hits 1,500 fps) brass goes a really L-O-N-G way. Like 20-30 feet. I've got an EGW over-sized FPS but haven't got around to shaping it yet. Silvertips clock in about 1,400 fps.
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  #19  
Old 08-10-2012, 07:37 PM
Onegoodshot Onegoodshot is offline
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Sig will soon be offering 1911's available in .357 Sig. pretty close to 9X23?
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  #20  
Old 08-10-2012, 08:44 PM
sbeatty1983 sbeatty1983 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Onegoodshot View Post
Sig will soon be offering 1911's available in .357 Sig. pretty close to 9X23?
pretty close, but with the 9x23 you can run heavier bullets and you get an extra round in the mag.
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  #21  
Old 08-11-2012, 10:03 PM
HAIL CAESAR HAIL CAESAR is offline
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9x23 blows the sig out of the water with reloading.
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  #22  
Old 08-11-2012, 10:57 PM
Marcus99 Marcus99 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HAIL CAESAR View Post
9x23 blows the sig out of the water with reloading.
Yep, as far as I know you need to lube .357 sig cases. Not sure about trimming but I see no reason why that step would be absent either. Perhaps that's why I see a fair amount of .357 sig, but no other cartridge on the ground at the range.
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  #23  
Old 08-12-2012, 01:23 PM
dakota1911 dakota1911 is offline
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Also, if you want to jump into something new I would consider the 10mm. You could fit another barrel and shoot 40 S&W. I have a Colt 1911 in 38 Super and fit a second barrel in 9mm (9x19). I was thinking yet another in 9x23, but went 10mm instead. Below is a 10mm Dan Wesson Classic of 2009 vintage. Nice.



After that I picked a barely shot Colt Delta Gold Cup. Next will be S&W revolvers in 10mm (610 and 310). If you reload 10mm is worth the look and I am amazed at how much ammo there is for it down here in the SW at least.
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