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  #1  
Old 06-22-2012, 06:58 PM
GULFAUTOGROUP GULFAUTOGROUP is offline
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Single Stack in IDPA?




I am looking at getting into the competitive shooting world and from what I have read and videos I have watched, im leaning toward shooting IDPA. I dont know if im not looking in the correct place or just missing it but the USPSA has a single stack division... does IDPA have such a thing or if the division is not called single stack what division would I shoot?

thanks in advance!
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  #2  
Old 06-22-2012, 07:11 PM
Amp Mangum Amp Mangum is online now
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If you are running a .45acp 1911, you would shoot CDP division.
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  #3  
Old 06-22-2012, 07:12 PM
john1badass45 john1badass45 is offline
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It is called cdp division-pretty much stock 1911's-gvnmt size,commander size and officer size and limited to 8rd mags.
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  #4  
Old 06-22-2012, 07:22 PM
Alland Alland is offline
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One major difference, USPSA single stack must be 1911 style pistol. IDPA CDP can be almost any 45 that will fit in the box.
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  #5  
Old 06-22-2012, 07:27 PM
GULFAUTOGROUP GULFAUTOGROUP is offline
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Awesome! thank you for the info!
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  #6  
Old 06-22-2012, 07:30 PM
sbeatty1983 sbeatty1983 is offline
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And there is also a class called Enhanced service Pistol. 1911's in any other caliber than 45 go there. I have never shot USPSA but I can tell you that IDPA is a blast. I look forward to the matches every month. The organizers at our club put in ALOT of time and effort into stage design and range maintenance. Find a good club and Im sure you will enjoy it too.
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  #7  
Old 06-22-2012, 07:43 PM
richpetrone richpetrone is offline
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IDPA and Single Stack 1911

The Enhanced Service Pistol divsion (ESP) has a maximum division capacity of 10 rounds in the magazine, plus one in the chamber to start. There are many folks that shoot 9mm and .38 super 1911's with 10 round mags, yet some prefer to use 9 round mags.

The most popular 1911 caliber for ESP would be the 9mm, since it is the most economical caliber to shoot in any action shooting competition......brass and bullets are cheaper than anything else.

I shoot an STI 2011 in 9mm for the ESP division, and only load the high cap mags to 10 rounds.
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  #8  
Old 06-23-2012, 01:15 AM
dl645 dl645 is offline
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While most people shoot a .45 1911 in CDP in IDPA, nothing in the rules prevent you from shooting it in ESP as well. Some will load ammo below the 165PF for CDP just for that. The rules for ESP are that you can have a maximum of 10rds in a magazine but if your magazine does not hold 10, they should be loaded to capacity. All magazines must be loaded the same as well. In CDP it's 8 but many shoot with 7 round magazines. All you need to be careful of is if you have some 7 and some 8 round magazines, all must be loaded the same. I've shot my 10mm in ESP and it only has 9rd magazines for it (I use Tripps). Not a problem but I always let the SO know ahead of time so he knows I'm starting at 9+1 and have 9rd magazines. If you had a Glock 20 or M&P .45, you could shoot it in all 3 pistol divisions.
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Old 06-24-2012, 11:49 PM
mikeg1005 mikeg1005 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dl645 View Post
While most people shoot a .45 1911 in CDP in IDPA, nothing in the rules prevent you from shooting it in ESP as well. Some will load ammo below the 165PF for CDP just for that. .
Why would you want to shoot a gun in a division where everyone else will have 10rds and you will only have 8?

MIke.
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  #10  
Old 06-25-2012, 12:15 AM
Jim Watson Jim Watson is offline
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Ah, but I have 10.
9+1 that is, courtesy of some custom made magazines that hold 9 .45 ACP and fit The Box.
That puts me on the same reload schedule as people who use 9 round 9mm or .38 magazines because it lets them do five double taps and reload between targets.
While I don't go along with that theory, I am no worse off than them... and I get a bigger hole in the target. Worth 2 or 3 points a match.
And of course I can shoot my 2011 and have 10+1 .45s, as you can with a variety of non-1911 .45s.
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  #11  
Old 06-25-2012, 07:16 AM
dl645 dl645 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mikeg1005 View Post
Why would you want to shoot a gun in a division where everyone else will have 10rds and you will only have 8?

MIke.
Possibly to shoot in all 5 divisions, especially if going for a 5 gun certificate. Only time number of rounds would matter is 10-11 & over 17rd stages. Sometimes for fun I shoot a 10mm in ESP which only has 9rd magazines.
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  #12  
Old 06-25-2012, 08:05 AM
mikeg1005 mikeg1005 is offline
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Originally Posted by dl645 View Post
Possibly to shoot in all 5 divisions, especially if going for a 5 gun certificate. .
Understandable... now, out of the people that actually shoot 5 division to get the certificate, how many are actually winning them with CDP guns in ESP?

Mike.
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  #13  
Old 06-25-2012, 12:37 PM
guysmith guysmith is offline
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You guys haven't ever seen Bill Wilson or Richard Heine shoot have you. I have a Green Valley Rifle and Pistol club for the Mo. State Championship in like 2004 or 5, and it was a thing of wonder, actually they shot head to head in an El Prez, Bill shooting 45 acp and Dick shooting 10mm. Neither pistol had any vertical movement in recoil and sounded like full auto fire, it was amazing. Now if you are that good the caliber and division doesn't matter, if you aren't then shooting 45 acp in ESP is a lose lose deal for ya.
If you are just getting started in shooting a 1911 and competing in IDPA let me give you a small piece of free advice and start with a full size 5" 1911, you will have less recoil to deal with. After you make vast improvements in scores and time then, then you can get the smaller 1911's if you really think you need it. Just remember that accuracy counts more than speed in IDPA, and that slow is smooth and smooth is fast. Work on accuracy as your accuracy increases your speed will follow as you practice.
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Last edited by guysmith; 06-25-2012 at 12:42 PM.
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  #14  
Old 06-25-2012, 02:01 PM
BillD BillD is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by guysmith View Post
You guys haven't ever seen Bill Wilson or Richard Heine shoot have you. .
Not but I've seen Todd Jarrett, Rob Leatham and Bob Vogel shoot.

Hell, I've beaten Dick Heinie.
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  #15  
Old 06-25-2012, 02:13 PM
mikeg1005 mikeg1005 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by guysmith View Post
if you aren't then shooting 45 acp in ESP is a lose lose deal for ya.
It has nothing to do with 45acp, 10mm, 9mm, 22lr.

It has to do with 8+1 vs. 10+1... you are at a 2 round disadvantage to everyone else.

Mike.
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  #16  
Old 06-26-2012, 02:57 PM
guysmith guysmith is offline
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So recoil and it's control is the same for your whether you are shooting 22l.r. or 45 acp? Superman lives!! Less recoil means faster times recovering from the recoil, unless your shooting bunny farts loads. So why compete against lighter recoiling caliber with a heavier caliber which has more recoil? Less time means faster overall times which means an overall lower score, provided you put the bullets where they belong in the zero down scoring ring, and which means you win.
Yes I have seen some of the top shooters compete and have spoken with them. They are impressive shooter not doubt about it. However Bill and Dick were very impressive shooters back in the beginning of IDPA and me being a novice shooter back then.
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  #17  
Old 06-26-2012, 03:46 PM
mikeg1005 mikeg1005 is offline
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Originally Posted by guysmith View Post
So recoil and it's control is the same for your whether you are shooting 22l.r. or 45 acp? Superman lives!! Less recoil means faster times recovering from the recoil, unless your shooting bunny farts loads. .

No.. you are comparing apples to oranges.

The 45acp/9mm recoil arguement is null, becuase he can load 45acp and 9mm to minor PF level.

We aren't talking a 230gr at 830fps.... we would be shooting "bunny fart" loads.

Quote:
Originally Posted by guysmith View Post
Yes I have seen some of the top shooters compete and have spoken with them. They are impressive shooter not doubt about it. However Bill and Dick were very impressive shooters back in the beginning of IDPA and me being a novice shooter back then
.
Ok... you can't compare "back then" to what the divisions/game is now.

"back then"... there used to be single stack open guns in USPSA....

I'd be willing to be very few/if any "current" top ESP shooters are running 8rd mags or 45acp guns.

I don't know why you would want to shoot a division and be a 2 round disadvantage to everyone else...

To each his own I guess, some people like doing this a certain way... People also shoot single stack and limited minor in USPSA... ironically none of them ever win any big matches.

Mike.
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  #18  
Old 06-27-2012, 02:38 PM
guysmith guysmith is offline
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Strange I though the OP was asking about IDPA NOT USPSA. If you are competing in ESP shooting a 45 it isn't comparing apples and oranges to discuss 9 mm vs 45 acp recoil. Yes most all are shooting 10 round mags, but you are still dealing with more recoil in 45 than 9, which means more times between shots and longer overall times. Which means you loose. Shoot in CDP and it's a level playing field and it the shooters skill that wins, not magazine capacity.
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  #19  
Old 06-27-2012, 02:49 PM
mikeg1005 mikeg1005 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by guysmith View Post
Strange I though the OP was asking about IDPA NOT USPSA. If you are competing in ESP shooting a 45 it isn't comparing apples and oranges to discuss 9 mm vs 45 acp recoil. Yes most all are shooting 10 round mags, but you are still dealing with more recoil in 45 than 9, which means more times between shots and longer overall times. Which means you loose. Shoot in CDP and it's a level playing field and it the shooters skill that wins, not magazine capacity.
Are you saying if you have a 45... shoot it in CDP and not in ESP?

If so, then thats what I was trying to say as well.

But unless we are talking about factory ammo, you can load 45 light so it won't waste time between shots.

Mike.
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  #20  
Old 06-27-2012, 02:50 PM
richpetrone richpetrone is offline
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ESP division of IDPA

I have used my Para P-14 with light loads in the ESP division, and loaded the mags with 10 rounds each. I also have a custom mag well on my P-14, but the shape of the mags themselves are a bit more square than the STI 2011 mags, so I prefer the STI gun anyway. I shot the P-14 fairly well, but the cost of .45 bullets and brass is far more expensive than 9mm.

I prefer my STI 2011 with a Kart 9mm barrel for the ESP div. of IDPA.
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  #21  
Old 07-03-2012, 01:53 PM
dillehayd dillehayd is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mikeg1005 View Post
Are you saying if you have a 45... shoot it in CDP and not in ESP?

If so, then thats what I was trying to say as well.

But unless we are talking about factory ammo, you can load 45 light so it won't waste time between shots.

Mike.
Not while making the CDP power floor. You can make it better but the guys shooting 9mm will always have a large recoil advantage. At the floors, the 9mm guys are dealing with more than 10% less energy. All other things equal (quality of load, powder burn rate optimization, etc) the CDP floor is a killer.
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  #22  
Old 07-03-2012, 04:32 PM
Jim Watson Jim Watson is offline
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There are other things going on besides shooting.

For several seasons I performed better in CDP than in ESP. That is, my overall match placement would be better when shooting a .45 than when shooting a 9mm. I can't explain it, but that is the way it went, in spite of fewer shots in the gun and more recoil.
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Old 07-05-2012, 01:19 PM
guysmith guysmith is offline
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I have experienced the opposite. I shoot my Sig P228 in 9mm, faster than I can shoot my 45's. When I shot the classifier told the truth. I was ranked MM in CDP for years and really had to practice to make SS. First time out with the Sig and having only shot 50 rounds to function test and get to know the little pistol, before shooting the classifier with the Sig. Guess what? I shot SS with the Sig, right out of the box. Go figure. I did the only thing I could figure was the lighter recoil and faster between shot times with the Sig. That was a compact 9mm vs a full size 5" 1911. Yes shooting the 9mm is 50% cheaper to shoot than the 45 acp. Oh yeah for those that reload, I don't reload and only shoot factory ammo in competition. As that's what I carry on the street, factory ammo, No reloads for street carry, no reloads for competition. Yes you can down load to bunny fart loads along with lighter springs to get the pistol to cycle, but they are only fooling themselves. I have seen several shooters make very rapid advances in ranking by using lighter loads, and more power to them, but they are only fooling those that don't know the difference.
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  #24  
Old 07-05-2012, 01:32 PM
sbeatty1983 sbeatty1983 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by guysmith View Post
I have experienced the opposite. I shoot my Sig P228 in 9mm, faster than I can shoot my 45's. When I shot the classifier told the truth. I was ranked MM in CDP for years and really had to practice to make SS. First time out with the Sig and having only shot 50 rounds to function test and get to know the little pistol, before shooting the classifier with the Sig. Guess what? I shot SS with the Sig, right out of the box. Go figure. I did the only thing I could figure was the lighter recoil and faster between shot times with the Sig. That was a compact 9mm vs a full size 5" 1911. Yes shooting the 9mm is 50% cheaper to shoot than the 45 acp. Oh yeah for those that reload, I don't reload and only shoot factory ammo in competition. As that's what I carry on the street, factory ammo, No reloads for street carry, no reloads for competition. Yes you can down load to bunny fart loads along with lighter springs to get the pistol to cycle, but they are only fooling themselves. I have seen several shooters make very rapid advances in ranking by using lighter loads, and more power to them, but they are only fooling those that don't know the difference.

As long as the "bunny fart" loads meet the power factors why go anymore? and dont complain about the people that use their reloading abilities to their advantage. In ESP I run a 125gr bullet at 1025fps. In CDP I run a 200gr at 850fps. Its a game and they both run just a little over the power factor. And also I "street carry" reloads. I guarantee the quality control on my hadloads is better than anything from the major manufacturers. Before anybody chastises me about carrying handloads, find me a real world case where they nailed someone in a shoot just because they used handloads.
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  #25  
Old 07-05-2012, 01:55 PM
BillD BillD is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by guysmith View Post
I have experienced the opposite. I shoot my Sig P228 in 9mm, faster than I can shoot my 45's. When I shot the classifier told the truth. I was ranked MM in CDP for years and really had to practice to make SS. First time out with the Sig and having only shot 50 rounds to function test and get to know the little pistol, before shooting the classifier with the Sig. Guess what? I shot SS with the Sig, right out of the box. Go figure. I did the only thing I could figure was the lighter recoil and faster between shot times with the Sig. That was a compact 9mm vs a full size 5" 1911. Yes shooting the 9mm is 50% cheaper to shoot than the 45 acp. Oh yeah for those that reload, I don't reload and only shoot factory ammo in competition. As that's what I carry on the street, factory ammo, No reloads for street carry, no reloads for competition. Yes you can down load to bunny fart loads along with lighter springs to get the pistol to cycle, but they are only fooling themselves. I have seen several shooters make very rapid advances in ranking by using lighter loads, and more power to them, but they are only fooling those that don't know the difference.
What difference? They ain't practicing for a gunfight, they are trying to win a pistol match within the rules.

If you choose to handicap yourself by shooting higher than needed PF ammo, by all means, go right ahead.

If you choose to look down on others who are playing the game within the rules because they ain't gunfighting....not so much.
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