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  #1  
Old 06-13-2012, 10:46 PM
TRPguy TRPguy is offline
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Capacity vs. Caliber




I carry a SA TRP on duty and my Sig RCS off-duty. I previously carried a Sig 220 prior to the 1911 authorization. While I have carried an 8+1 gun for the past 4 yrs of my short 6yr career, I always go back and forth between wanting a gun with a higher capacity.

My agency does not allow any double stack 1911's, don't ask me why, and I don't have the biggest hands in the world so most double stack .45 ACP's are too bulky anyway.

It seems that short of the zombie apocolypse 8+1 in MOST LE shootings is plenty. I just thought I'd put this out there because I have been strongly considering a Glock 34.

Please save the Glock hating for elsewhere I am just looking for opinion's of pro's and con's and any personal experiences with shootings, if you're willing and okay to share them.

Thanks
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  #2  
Old 06-13-2012, 11:34 PM
cololab cololab is offline
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I went through the same anguish as you but I never came up with a difinitive answer for myself. In the end, my agency mandated .40 caliber weapon systems and the issue was decided for me. I really never felt at a disadvantage with 8+1 though.
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  #3  
Old 06-14-2012, 03:14 AM
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stillwater stillwater is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TRPguy View Post
It seems that 8+1 in MOST LE shootings is plenty.
Notice you live in NV...do they allow you to carry AR's in your car there...just thinking...

An AR with two 30-round mags tends to even the score a mite.
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  #4  
Old 06-14-2012, 04:57 AM
wc145 wc145 is online now
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I think we all mull the caliber/capacity question from time to time. I recently changed from a Springfield 1911 to a FNP-45 Tactical for a number of reasons that made sense for my job and where I work and the 15+1 capacity was definitely a factor in my choosing the FN. So far I'm very pleased with my decision.
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Old 06-14-2012, 06:44 AM
Mick0610 Mick0610 is offline
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I carried a revolver (required) for several years and was glad to have my COLT 1911 with 8+1!!! WOW! 3 more rounds and a quick reload! The world was right.
Then, they said all the instuctors had to go to GLOCKS because they would be issued soon. OK, a new GLOCK 31 with 15+1 rounds of .357 SIG was better. Then they said I HAD TO CARRY THEIR GLOCK 17. 17+1 rounds of 9mm???? WHY??? Because 600+ officers varying in size from a world class body builder to 5', 100# ladies all were going to have the SAME gun. It worked but .40 would've been better.
It was 32 years last Sunday and I'm back to that G31 albeit with a .40 barrel in it.
We have ALLOT of .40 ammo at the "retirement job".

Bottom line, I'd go back to the COLT with 8+1 tomorrow, I just need it long enough to get back to the AR in the car...
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  #6  
Old 06-14-2012, 09:28 AM
Alabam Alabam is offline
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In my 5 year career I've only carried glocks. I've had the option for other stuff, but the glock has reliability, capacity, ease of use, a wide variety of holsters/add-ons, it's free (because it's issued to me), and I can hit with it just fine.

Every time I start to play with picking up something else I can't really justify it other than a different platform would be more pleasing to the eye.

My first department went with the glock 22 for a few reasons. One being that they had two large scale shootouts in the 90's. Each of them required more ammo than each officer had. They had people making ammo runs to come back to each Officer. It was a shopping list as back then they allowed people to have various calibers.

They figured with the .40, people can share magazines and ammo became standardized. I'm sure it was cheaper in the long run.

I've been on the scene of several Officer involved shootings. Most did not involve reloading with less than 5 rounds fired. However do you want to be prepared for the average gunfight, or the crazy 'going to make national news' gunfight that spans 4 hours?

The idea of a rifle is nice, but chances are varied on if you'll have time to get it out in time. So I always end up packing my ugly high capacity glock. It simply does the job, and when I wear it out they'll give me another one.
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  #7  
Old 06-14-2012, 10:31 AM
FrontRangeFuzz FrontRangeFuzz is offline
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I've been through many Glocks, many Sigs, a Springfield XD that I didn't care for, and after going through all of those I decided to go big-bore and came across the M&P45. It seemed to do a decent job of filling the void between capacity, caliber, AND ergos with it's great grip angle and 10 round mags. The problem? The stock trigger sucks something horrible. Apex Tactical solved that problem and now it's one of my favorite guns to shoot (and I'll never get rid of it), but I didn't feel comfortable carrying a "modified" duty weapon.

So, I'm now on to the Sig TacOps. Fully loaded with a Safariland Slimline triple mag pouch, I actually have 2 more rounds available to me than I did with the M&P loadout. I'll have to complete a third reload to access the additional rounds, but I figure that the superior ergos and trigger of the 1911 will make it that much easier to make the first 25 count.
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Last edited by FrontRangeFuzz; 06-14-2012 at 01:41 PM.
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  #8  
Old 06-14-2012, 10:45 AM
COLD COLD is offline
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When I was in LE I carried a Kimber Custom with double mag carrier on weak side with a 357 revolver at quick access from drivers seat + extra mags in the vehicle also an AR, a bolt 223 and an 870.I patrolled rural areas which sometimes had no radio contact so no back up.I NEVER felt the need for a hi cap.The only gangs we had to deal with were motorcycle gangs and they really didn't want any confrontation.Hope this helps.COLD.
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  #9  
Old 06-14-2012, 10:54 AM
CPD253 CPD253 is offline
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If your agency will allow, carry two extra 8 rnd mags in a quad pouch. There are several out there in both kydex and leather. I have a leather pouch from Nelson Leather and a kydex one from Bladetech.

Good luck and be safe.
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  #10  
Old 06-14-2012, 01:09 PM
TRPguy TRPguy is offline
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Glad to see that I am not the only one with the dilema. Alabam has hit the nail on the head for me as to why I go back and forth. Not that I feel out gunned with 8+1 because I don't. I shoot often enough and well enough that like Frontrangefuzz I feel that I will make my first 9 count.

I do carry a quad mag pouch from Safariland, but as Surefire has recently advertised, the fastest reload is the one that never happens.

@Stillwater, yes I do carry a BCM 16" middy in my car. I have a rifle plate carrier with two extra mags in it, provided I'm able or have the opportunity to fight back to it.

I think I'll probably end up buying a Glock 34 and running a few training classes/days with it and go from there.

Keep the opinions coming though as I'm sure I'll be back to this thread often.
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  #11  
Old 06-14-2012, 01:46 PM
FrontRangeFuzz FrontRangeFuzz is offline
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TRP, if you can swing a .40, take a hard look at the Gen4 Glock 35. It was on my short list for a long time, but then I switched to an agency that only allows 9mm and .45, so I sold off my two G22 to minimize the different calibers of ammo I had on hand.

That being said, .40 was recently approved at the local SO, and we tend to follow suit with their weapons policies since we train with them (the caveat being they don't allow 1911's, but my chief does ). I've got 700 rounds of .40 left over, so the G35 is back on my "hmmmmm" list.
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  #12  
Old 06-14-2012, 03:43 PM
TRPguy TRPguy is offline
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I actually had a Gen 4 Glock 35. I didn't really like the .40 seems that after I sold my USP Compact .40 some years ago and gone solely to .45's I just didn't like the way it felt. It was an absolute tack driver, don't get me wrong.....I just didn't really like it.

Besides, from everything that I can find most 9mm duty ammo ballistic reports are coming close to .45's. That being said I am a firm believer that it doesn't matter the size, it all comes down to shot placement, but I still have chosen to carry a .45 my career thus far.
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  #13  
Old 06-15-2012, 10:39 AM
Mushinto Mushinto is offline
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I have carried a 1911 for most of my 30+ year police career. I only feel the need for more capacity when I watch a Srteven Segal or zombie movie. I get over it by carrying extra mags.

You can't have too many mags, but they all don't have to be in your gun. The fit of a handgun to your hand is important for hitting what you aim at.

ML
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  #14  
Old 06-15-2012, 12:53 PM
BoulderTroll BoulderTroll is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mushinto View Post
I have carried a 1911 for most of my 30+ year police career. I only feel the need for more capacity when I watch a Srteven Segal or zombie movie. I get over it by carrying extra mags.

You can't have too many mags, but they all don't have to be in your gun. The fit of a handgun to your hand is important for hitting what you aim at.

ML
Iliked the Steven Segal/ zombie comment. Who wouldn't want more ammo after watching one of the Resident Evil movies?

We are only allowed to carry the Glock 22, for the "one size fits all" mentality. I don't mind it, it has always served me well, and 15 rounds of .40 cal is confidence inspiring. Our department is also lenient when it comes to spare ammo. I know of at least two guys where I work that carry three spare mags on their belt instead of two.

All that said, I recently bought an 8 round HK45Compact, that I plan on carrying as an off-duty gun, with two 10 round mags as spares. I doubt I'd feel undergunned with an 8 round .45 and twenty spare rounds on the belt. For me, I went the HK route simply because I can't always activate the grip safety of my 1911 100% of the time, and I also suck at reloading single stack magazines.
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  #15  
Old 06-15-2012, 12:54 PM
trad64 trad64 is offline
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I Carry Sig 226 on duty and a Sig RCS off duty. I love the feel of the 1911 and its very comfortable to carry. And shot placement is the key if it ever comes down to it. To much liability with spray and pray.
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  #16  
Old 06-15-2012, 04:04 PM
Ben25 Ben25 is offline
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Over my ongoing 21yr. career working the street, and other HSLD assignments in SoCal, I have carried the S&W 4506, Sig 226 & 220, Glock 21 and now will be carrying the SA TRP. I believe if you are serious about officer safety/survival you should be looking at other gear, guns and whatever else will make your job/assignment more effective and safe.But more importantly is that you must train constantly with that new piece of gear so it does become second nature (tactical reloads etc.) when the SHTF. I have had my share of OIS's with 3 different handguns which taught me quickly what works for me and what doesn't. And of course shot placement is important, but when it comes down to it, the chest area of a dirtbag looks a MILLION times bigger than his head which equals an easier target to hit under stress. Just my 2 cents FWIW.
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  #17  
Old 06-19-2012, 10:10 PM
TRPguy TRPguy is offline
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So I've settled on staying with my 1911. Thanks for all the input, I think I'll leave this thread up since it seems others have had the same question.
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  #18  
Old 06-19-2012, 11:09 PM
LEO2B LEO2B is offline
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Love the 1911 triggers, but.....the G17/34 gets the most head shots on target, consistently. Probably because that's where most of my training has been, but there's other reasons as well like weight. It depends on what you're doing really; patrol, investigations, SRT...
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  #19  
Old 06-20-2012, 12:23 AM
Mushinto Mushinto is offline
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If you test a pistol by seeing how fast you can empty the gun into the same hole, a 9mm is probably your best choice.

ML
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  #20  
Old 06-30-2012, 09:56 PM
taseal taseal is offline
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capacity...

as a grunt, I have seen our 'small' calibers do deadly damage. this includes the 9mm

I don't like talking about this stuff, but I've seen seeing these threads alot lately, so I want to chime in...

I respect our LEOs and I'm few weeks from starting out as a rookie with a dept here. but capacity is key. I have never been in a situation in rooms (and distance) where I shot a person one time (or twice) and it was enough. I always put at least 3, and there were times where I shot until they tumbled down. this was maybe 4-5 times on a single person. This is CQB distance.

now we increase this to 25-50 yards with a pistol, I have never shot like 2 rounds at a person and watch them go down, and move to the next person. it usually took a magazine or two (15 rounders) to take down few bad guys

if you look at some youtube videos of cop shootings, you'll see there is way more than a magazine of rounds being exchanged.

so with my experience in actually shooting and killing my enemies with a pistol, I will take capacity every time.

it's diff when the target isn't paper or steel, under cover, constantly moving and shooting back at you.

Please don't ask questions and I probably won't write about this stuff again, but I had to clear the air about it with actual field experience.

I hope this clears up some stuff.
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  #21  
Old 07-03-2012, 12:13 PM
KenW. KenW. is offline
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I carried an 8+1 1911 the first 7-8 years of my career. I could easily switch back, but I prefer not having to top off mags in the qualification shoot. I like my 16-round mags. Now using Springfield XDM 40 compact as a detective.
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  #22  
Old 07-03-2012, 12:18 PM
Mushinto Mushinto is offline
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Originally Posted by KenW. View Post
I carried an 8+1 1911 the first 7-8 years of my career. I could easily switch back, but I prefer not having to top off mags in the qualification shoot. ...
Well as long as you have a valid reason to chose a smaller caliber to defend your life with, I guess it's OK.

ML
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  #23  
Old 07-03-2012, 12:20 PM
19112474me 19112474me is offline
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i carry both :-D no compromise needed. 1911 strongside primary, S&W M&P40c backup usually SOB, or ankled :-D 8+1 in the 1911, 10+1 in the S&W :-)
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  #24  
Old 07-03-2012, 02:31 PM
KenW. KenW. is offline
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Originally Posted by Mushinto View Post
Well as long as you have a valid reason to chose a smaller caliber to defend your life with, I guess it's OK.

ML
I more than gained in capacity what I lost in caliber. Ever hear a BG ask "Is that a 45? Okay, I'll surrender".
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  #25  
Old 07-03-2012, 03:13 PM
Midnight Rider Midnight Rider is offline
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What if your a civilian living in California and your limited to 10 rounds? do you still stay with 9mm or do you go up to a larger caliber? I have been wondering about this myself, I have both a Glock 17 and a few 1911's and cant decide which one would I should train with more. I shoot my 1911 better but I look at ammo prices and 9mm is cheaper which means more trigger time.
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