New Remington Rand, hope it's all correct, please let me know !

[oldcanuck]

Bill,

Seems to be a straight example of a Type III RRand. The magazine would be worth alot more, but unfortunately the condition train has already pulled out on that one. I sold one the other day to a fellow who needed a pre-WWI two-tone lanyard mag with little or no condition to match up with his M1911 of the same condition for $100.-

Bob

[billybandholz]

Bob, gotcha. Any info on the "S" stamp that's on the inside of my old Colt 1911 but not the RR ? I have read that the "S" is a stamp indicating "Field Service". Is this just on 1911's ? Colt's ? Also, on coolgunsite, they have a RR sn 1.377 and change with a checkered MSH, could these have gone either way in that range ? Mine is 1.310 with the straight lines.

Thanks !

[chambersaviator]

If that is the way it was likely used in a significant historic time period I don't think I would bother to make it "correct". It was only correct once when it left the factory. But that's the way I view things. My Rem Rand as far as I can tell is all original with the exception of a Colt grip on one side. It's staying that way. Making it dreambook collector correct would just take away from the actual times it went through. But that's me. Nice gun!

[billybandholz]

Aviator, thanks for the input ! I'm going to change the grips and slide a G mag into it, that's probably it. As much as I would like to shoot it tomorrow though, just about everyone is advising against it It is a nice gun though, thanks again for the compliment !

[CIB]

Originally Posted by chambersaviator

If that is the way it was likely used in a significant historic time period I don't think I would bother to make it "correct". It was only correct once when it left the factory. But that's the way I view things. My Rem Rand as far as I can tell is all original with the exception of a Colt grip on one side. It's staying that way. Making it dreambook collector correct would just take away from the actual times it went through. But that's me. Nice gun!

Jim Bob from Toledo could have stuck that Colt grip on there in 1979, why not correct that?

[Blacksmith]

Originally Posted by CIB

Jim Bob from Toledo could have stuck that Colt grip on there in 1979, why not correct that?

I know Jim Bob, and he would have opted for faux-ivory grips with dragons on them...

[Blacksmith]

Originally Posted by billybandholz

Aviator, thanks for the input ! I'm going to change the grips and slide a G mag into it, that's probably it. As much as I would like to shoot it tomorrow though, just about everyone is advising against it It is a nice gun though, thanks again for the compliment !

Billy - Opinions vary on whether to shoot or not - I think we actually have a 'Sticky' topic on this very conundrum.

Excessive holster wear / extreme field use ages them quickly; but, if you were to put a box or two through it occasionally, it isn't going to make a difference IMHO.

To shoot it a ton, some may advise a shock buffer, heavier recoil spring, and softened target loads.

As it is, do whatever would bring you the most enjoyment - life is fleeting, revel in it.

If it was a Singer, I'd feel otherwise.

Heck, maybe shooting a box through it every V-E / V-J / Memorial Day is the best homage to those that paved the way for liberty with the 1911...

[Blacksmith]

Billy - This is the thread I was referring to:

http://forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?t=278153

Has some good food for thought from Scott and Dana.

[oldcanuck]

Originally Posted by billybandholz

Bob, gotcha. Any info on the "S" stamp that's on the inside of my old Colt 1911 but not the RR ? I have read that the "S" is a stamp indicating "Field Service". Is this just on 1911's ? Colt's ? Also, on coolgunsite, they have a RR sn 1.377 and change with a checkered MSH, could these have gone either way in that range ? Mine is 1.310 with the straight lines.

Thanks !

The 'S' stamp sounds like an inspector marking.

[billybandholz]

Hey guys, sorry, I couldn't resist. I shot them, I shot them both ! Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha haaaaaaaa ! I was careful though, promise. Well oiled before, cleaned immediately after. I only put 10 rnds thru each. The RR had a softball size group at 20m and the old Colt just a little bigger. They both were solid. I'm only doing this once a year, promise ! Enjoy the day guys !

[dsk]

A mag or two on occasion will probably not make a difference..... unless one of those rounds ends up being a squib or an overcharge.

[Blacksmith]

Originally Posted by billybandholz

Hey guys, sorry, I couldn't resist. I shot them, I shot them both ! Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha haaaaaaaa ! I was careful though, promise. Well oiled before, cleaned immediately after. I only put 10 rnds thru each. The RR had a softball size group at 20m and the old Colt just a little bigger. They both were solid. I'm only doing this once a year, promise ! Enjoy the day guys !

Softball at 20m is fantastic. Such a great platform the 1911 is.

What Colt did you shoot? USGI?

[billybandholz]

Yep, the Colt is from 1917, reblued years ago and the USP was ground off, but she's all correct in her pieces, right down to the grips ! Fired like a trooper !

[chambersaviator]

Originally Posted by CIB

Jim Bob from Toledo could have stuck that Colt grip on there in 1979, why not correct that?

My point is this: If you change it to make it correct it will never be as used during a significant time period. You will have changed it from the way it may potentially have been carried by a vet in harms way. If you leave as is it may be as used or it may not. A serviceman may have dropped it in WWII and replacement grips were put on then, or Andrew Malone may have carried it in Vietnam and it may have been replaced then. Or Jim Bob may have done it a few months ago to sell it at a gunshow. Point is it has been changed since it was issued and your best bet having a gun as actually carried is leaving as is--unless it is obvious parts are not correctly finished or something. But we are taught that to be truly of value a gun must look like a correct example in a book... even though this is not necessarily the way it spent most of its years in service.

[billybandholz]

Aviator, you're absolutely right, maybe some food for thought. Changing out the mag though is an absolute must though lol !

[Blacksmith]

Originally Posted by chambersaviator

My point is this: If you change it to make it correct it will never be as used during a significant time period. You will have changed it from the way it may potentially have been carried by a vet in harms way. If you leave as is it may be as used or it may not. A serviceman may have dropped it in WWII and replacement grips were put on then, or Andrew Malone may have carried it in Vietnam and it may have been replaced then. Or Jim Bob may have done it a few months ago to sell it at a gunshow. Point is it has been changed since it was issued and your best bet having a gun as actually carried is leaving as is--unless it is obvious parts are not correctly finished or something. But we are taught that to be truly of value a gun must look like a correct example in a book... even though this is not necessarily the way it spent most of its years in service.

Hi Aviator - I understand what you're saying, but respectfully, that feels like a lot of assumption and conjecture.

I think the category of 'as used (in service)' becomes broad and muddy pretty fast. For example, it's not wholly inconceivable that Andrew Malone was an armorer in Vietnam, and was sent a batch of commercial barrels by a gunsmith in his hometown, to support the war effort.

If I'm looking at a RR at a local show, and see a commercial barrel, should I assume it was installed by an Army armorer?

I think I'm forced to work from definitions I can prove, such as originality and correctness.

Anything else becomes something I convince myself of.

[chambersaviator]

Originally Posted by Blacksmith

Hi Aviator - I understand what you're saying, but respectfully, that feels like a lot of assumption and conjecture.

So it's unreasonable to assume that the majority of military parts replacements on a m1911 (that could potentially have been in military service anywhere from 20 to 74 years) were done during its military service? That parts replacements on a 1911A1 (that could potentially have been in military service anywhere up to 45 years) was done during its military service? Are you saying there is a 99% chance that bubba added government issue parts later? I did not say it was guaranteed that any USGI replacement parts were done during its service. Just highly likely... and thus worthy to be considered potential military modifications.

Originally Posted by Blacksmith

I think the category of 'as used (in service)' becomes broad and muddy pretty fast. For example, it's not wholly inconceivable that Andrew Malone was an armorer in Vietnam, and was sent a batch of commercial barrels by a gunsmith in his hometown, to support the war effort.

Vietnam was bad, but I cannot think of a war we have been losing that badly However, maybe it did happen somewhere, sometime.

Originally Posted by Blacksmith

If I'm looking at a RR at a local show, and see a commercial barrel, should I assume it was installed by an Army armorer?

Not unless it has markings that are military. I believe even the commercial barrels used on WWI and II guns had some kind of inspection mark. Experts can correct me if I'm wrong.

What looks great in a collectors collection and in the collectors books, is not always the way guns were actually used during the majority of their service history. That's just a fact as far as I can see... others with more experience may have more to add.

[chambersaviator]

Originally Posted by billybandholz

Aviator, you're absolutely right, maybe some food for thought. Changing out the mag though is an absolute must though lol !

I know what you mean, those loop mags don't really look that great on A1's. I would personally hang on to it along with getting a correct mag, but that's me Each persons approach to collecting and handling these guns is a little different. As long as nobody takes a buffer to an original gun and nickel plates it, I'm OK.

[William Sanders]

Originally Posted by billybandholz

Aviator, thanks for the input ! I'm going to change the grips and slide a G mag into it, that's probably it. As much as I would like to shoot it tomorrow though, just about everyone is advising against it It is a nice gun though, thanks again for the compliment !

Chambersaviator has an interesting point. But changing the mag and grips probably wouldn't hurt anything. I think the non lanyard GI mag would look better. It might be interesting to save the parts you took off just for the possible history. My two cents..

[dsk]

Getting back to the OP's pistol, I just noticed the trigger is a Union Switch & Signal part with borderless checkering.

[billybandholz]

Cool, now that's something I would have never known. So that's borderless checkering as opposed to ? That's something we missed right off the bat, thanks !

[dsk]

Here is a correct Remington Rand trigger. Note the uncheckered borders at each end.

[billybandholz]

Ahhhhhhhh.......you mean at the top and bottom ? I see, said the blind man as he picked up his hammer and saw ! How many US&S spare triggers do you think were made, as opposed to RR ? Not that armorers at unit level would have bothered to check if it needed to be replaced. That's something I probably wouldn't change (should make Aviator happy). Chances are something like that would have been done by a GI, not by bubba or Joe schmoe (like me) as I would imagine a correct RR trigger would be cheaper and probably more readily available ? Wouldn't you think ? Good eye !

[dsk]

Given the fact that your grips are replacements I'm just guessing that a previous owner put commercial parts in yours, then another subsequent owner removed those parts and replaced them with GI parts found at a gun show to make it look whole again. Or, the pistol was taken apart and rebuilt at some depot somewhere, and the trigger and grips were damaged so they were replaced with spare components. As you can see, it could've happened anywhere, and at any time. People weren't always walking around with Clawson's books trying to keep pistols 100% factory-correct, and in fact before his first book was published in 1991 nobody really had a clue what belonged on a particular pistol anyway. My Remington Rand shown above had a Colt slide stop on it when I first brought it home, and who knows why. Maybe the original one broke and had to be replaced, maybe Bubba liked checkered slide stops better, maybe two GI's were cleaning their pistols in a squad tent and Joe picked up the slide stop from Willie's pistol by mistake..... the possibilities are endless.

[billybandholz]

Yep, if only they could talk ! Thanks for the input. You're right, the possibilities are endless. Compared to my M1 carbines, though, these are a walk in the park (from a mixmaster id view) lol !