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  #26  
Old 05-22-2012, 01:45 PM
USMM guy USMM guy is offline
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I do not have any where near the training or experience.




That most of the responders in this thread have. However I have had a chance to fire a number of different fully automatic weapons over the years. My observation is that they are for the most part very difficult to use effectively. I am not saying that there are not people who can do this. But I am guessing that this takes quite a bit of training and experience that most people never receive wether soldiers or otherwise.

My two cents.
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  #27  
Old 05-22-2012, 03:16 PM
CavCop CavCop is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by USMM guy View Post
That most of the responders in this thread have. However I have had a chance to fire a number of different fully automatic weapons over the years. My observation is that they are for the most part very difficult to use effectively. I am not saying that there are not people who can do this. But I am guessing that this takes quite a bit of training and experience that most people never receive wether soldiers or otherwise.

My two cents.
FWIW.

90% of the Army is issued M16A4's and M4's that have semi and 3 round burst.

About 10% is issued M16A3's and M4A1's that have semi and full auto.

All the front line Infantry units I have seen, trained, worked, deployed with did some type of training even if very limited with the select fire. I dont even know if support units zero their weapons when they go to combat.

I can say that my unit was trained/certified stateside by the Army to shoot full auto out of moving vehicles, something that I know is very rare. I also got to mess around overseas doing it.
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  #28  
Old 05-22-2012, 03:48 PM
Brian R. Brian R. is offline
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When I was trained on an M-16 during Vietnam, we were taught to limit our auto use to 3-4 round bursts.
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  #29  
Old 05-22-2012, 04:47 PM
Dave Waits Dave Waits is offline
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While I don't have recent experience I did a tour in SEA(69-late70) in the Air Force. Most firefights you would have about 30% of the troops raising their rifles above cover and spraying Full-Auto, the rest that would engage would be firing Semi-Auto. I do know for a fact that, the deadliest ambushes had all but whoever was closing the L-type using aimed Semi-auto fire. More accurate. As for breaking an Ambush, Back then we were taught to assault the Ambush. I spent 3-1/2 years in the Regular Air Force and another twenty in the Air Guard.

Now, my air Guard unit got a lot of infantry training because we were a FACP-Light. With our Mission we would set-up on the FEBA(Front-Edge,Battle Area), formed our own perimeters and ran our own defense. Basically, we were the closest thing the Air Force had to Infantry at the time. Our training ws that we used Semi-Auto fire only(We had supporting M60 GPMGs) unless our position was in threat of being overrun by a numerically-superior force. Then we were to use full auto to suppress long enough to set the charges on our TS assets and then fall back. I retired from the Air Guard in 90, no doubt tactics and operational planning has changed since then.
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  #30  
Old 05-22-2012, 05:16 PM
FNISHR FNISHR is offline
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It's my understanding that SpecOps units routinely use their weapons in semi-auto.
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  #31  
Old 05-22-2012, 06:59 PM
halvenut halvenut is offline
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Using semi auto wouldn't limit their effectiveness at all, but in fact enhance it. I served in a Mechanized Infantry unit during the Vietnam era and was trained on all of the weapons including crew served. We where trained on the M-16 to use the semi switch 99% of the time and to go to auto only when the crew weapons weren't working or readily available and only if needed for suppressing fire or CYA in withdrawing. The M-16 was more accurate in the semi mode. We had M-60 and M-2 on most tracks for automatic purposes. The M-3 was also in limited use but was basically for spray and pray usage. We also were trained on clearing houses, buildings etc., and most of it was using the semi selector and occasionally 3 round bursts. The first shot was always on with the other two sailing high. The bursts were for intimidation mostly. We didn't have the optics and high tec gear that today's grunts have.
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  #32  
Old 05-22-2012, 08:28 PM
lowflash lowflash is offline
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Originally Posted by RickB View Post
I was reading about the number of rounds expended per casualty inflicted in Vietnam, and it was something like 50,000 rounds? I'd have to think that full-auto spraying was responsible for a lot of that.
If you weren’t their maybe you shouldn’t talk about it. It is irksome in the extreme to hear the same old same old concerning poorly trained troops and spray and pray. Take a look at the terrain and the combatants before painting everyone with the same brush. I refrain from commenting on another individual’s war because I wasn’t there. USMC 64-68
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  #33  
Old 05-22-2012, 08:33 PM
HungrySeagull HungrySeagull is offline
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Our enemies fill the sky with automatic. There is a picture of a Iraqi light machine gunner with a second man hauling a belt of hundreds of rounds running next to him and a third with a battle rifle covering sectors not covered by the machine gunner and ammo man.

Just before they were obliterated by a main gun round.

Yea they do semi, but large calibers such as 120mm, 155 etc are not yet fully automatic; strides have been made for decades.

You want firepower and a huge amount of it in the battlefield at certain times. Other times aimed fire will get the kill. It all depends.

Your ammo budget goes out the window in war. You can transport mountains and it will never be enough.

I am not military, just a very interested armchair general of the worst kind who have studied it ever since the cold war days... when heaven and hell was delivered within 30 minutes guaranteed; it was a different time in those days.
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Last edited by HungrySeagull; 05-22-2012 at 08:35 PM.
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  #34  
Old 05-22-2012, 08:51 PM
CavCop CavCop is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RickB View Post
I was reading about the number of rounds expended per casualty inflicted in Vietnam, and it was something like 50,000 rounds? I'd have to think that full-auto spraying was responsible for a lot of that.
Iraq and A-Stan was about 250,000 rounds per insurgent. There were also a larger number of trained Snipers and dedicated weapons employed.

But our soldier like to shoot and over kill is seen as fun...
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  #35  
Old 05-22-2012, 10:28 PM
jmruth72 jmruth72 is offline
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When I was aboard ship while in the Navy we had 2 full auto M14s out of 16 and they only got used twice. Both times were during scheduled rifle shoots and that was because GM2 and GMC just wanted to exercise them to make sure they worked. I got to fire one 20 round magazine through it. I was keeping 3 - 5 round burst and the barrell was climbing atleast two inches and there was nothing I could do about it. It was awesome to shoot and I would love to have one, but it would rarely if ever get fired in full auto. I will take one lethal shot compared to a hundred pray and spray rounds. Even when using the. 50 cal we were taught 3 - 5 round burst till on target, then open up until either the target gives up, is destroyed or stops. Miss the toys I got to play with, but I do not miss the Navy and the stupid B.S.. I would keep the full auto as an option, rather have it and not need it then need it and not have it.
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  #36  
Old 05-22-2012, 10:41 PM
silvercorvette silvercorvette is offline
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I would think that a selector allowing three round bursts would be the best option, you can single fire but when you need to put more lead down range a 3 round burst will give you more firepower without wasting too much ammo.
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  #37  
Old 05-22-2012, 10:54 PM
Bigmant Bigmant is offline
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As someone who is in our country's military, I think its a crucial part of any infantry squad. The ability for a squad to use and M-60 or the like to lay down a steady stream of suppressing fire is a crucial part to any combat situation. Sure the job can get done with a semi automatic, but its about how well. I don't know about you, but I wouldn't want to be on the receiving end of 100+ rounds on a magazine belt. That's the power of an automatic weapon, in any caliber. So my vote goes to having automatics is a must. Just my opinion
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  #38  
Old 05-23-2012, 01:02 AM
BoulderTroll BoulderTroll is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bigmant View Post
As someone who is in our country's military, I think its a crucial part of any infantry squad. The ability for a squad to use and M-60 or the like to lay down a steady stream of suppressing fire is a crucial part to any combat situation. Sure the job can get done with a semi automatic, but its about how well. I don't know about you, but I wouldn't want to be on the receiving end of 100+ rounds on a magazine belt. That's the power of an automatic weapon, in any caliber. So my vote goes to having automatics is a must. Just my opinion
Thanks for your service Bigmant!

I don't think anyone is disagreeing with you. The OP made a point that he was only referring to individual long-arms, not the squad level crew served weapons.
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  #39  
Old 05-23-2012, 01:57 AM
ekaphoto ekaphoto is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by silvercorvette View Post
I would think that a selector allowing three round bursts would be the best option, you can single fire but when you need to put more lead down range a 3 round burst will give you more firepower without wasting too much ammo.
There are some issues with the burst mode ie if you shoot 2 shots then pull the trigger only one shot come out the next "burst" They are getting away from burst fire. Burst fire is a way to fix the problem of lack of training insted of actually training.
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  #40  
Old 05-23-2012, 02:04 AM
AJMBLAZER AJMBLAZER is offline
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FA useful? Sometimes in battle rifles. Very much so in machine guns, but that's different.

When I went through Marine Corps bootcamp in 97-98 we used M16A2's that were 3 round burst and semi only and they pretty much flat out told us that 3 round burst was to be rarely used and the 3rd shot would probably go over their shoulder if we aimed for the belt/gut. I also remember shooting mine on 3rd burst one time at the range and not even a full mag.

When I carried the SAW and trained on the M240G and M2 .50 cal we were trained to fire in bursts. Kept the barrel cooler, shots better aimed, and conserved ammo. If I remember correctly the maximum cyclic rate of the M2 is 550rpm but the best sustained rate is about 60rpm. Yes, 60.

This is also why most automatic rifles have the selector switches configured so in the heat of battle a nervous or poorly trained troop will probably slam the switch into semi instead of full auto and thus save ammo.
Even the "primitive" AK-47 family does this. The selector goes from the top safe position to full auto and then down to semi auto. The full auto position is fairly easy to miss and drop straight down to semi. Kalashnikov did that on purpose.

Lastly, the Marine Corps recently started to supplement and replace it's M249 SAW light machine guns with the M27 automatic rifle. It's basically a heavy barrel M16 in the simplest terms. Going to be capable of putting very accurate fire down range at a faster rate than your standard M16/M4 while using far less ammo, weighing less, and being more accurate than the SAW. Several well aimed shots are better than a whole belt full of sky burner misses. Right now uses standard 30rd AR mags but last I heard they were looking at the new fat body high capacity mags.
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  #41  
Old 05-23-2012, 02:08 AM
AJMBLAZER AJMBLAZER is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ekaphoto View Post
There are some issues with the burst mode ie if you shoot 2 shots then pull the trigger only one shot come out the next "burst" They are getting away from burst fire. Burst fire is a way to fix the problem of lack of training insted of actually training.
You've reminded me of something with that. Another part of my limited experience with 3 round burst in training was the range instructors saying that most of the time it wouldn't work correctly and you'd have to clear a jam.
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  #42  
Old 05-23-2012, 09:39 AM
Horseless Trooper Horseless Trooper is offline
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Falklands

The Brits seemed to do fine with the semi L1A1 vs. the Argentine full auto FALs. Training and morale seemed to be alot more important than firepower. The French stuck with a semi auto with only a 10 round mag until the 80's also and although they didn't fight any major conflicts they were involved in a few scrapes in Africa.
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  #43  
Old 05-23-2012, 09:44 AM
boutaswell boutaswell is online now
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There are plenty others on here that have gone down range but from my limited experience, anything beyond a targeted 3-round burst is a waste of ammo. There is a time for everything of course but just "wildly spraying" as the liberal media would call it, is just a waste.
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  #44  
Old 05-23-2012, 09:46 AM
mikeg1005 mikeg1005 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Horseless Trooper View Post
The French stuck with a semi auto with only a 10 round mag until the 80's also and although they didn't fight any major conflicts they were involved in a few scrapes in Africa.
The French + military = sound advice.

Ever heard the joke? How many Frenchmen does it take to defend Paris? Who knows... its never been done before.

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  #45  
Old 05-23-2012, 09:50 AM
AJMBLAZER AJMBLAZER is offline
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The Foreign Legion and their spec ops bubba's might disagree with you.

They were who did most of the fighting back then anyway.
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  #46  
Old 05-23-2012, 09:50 AM
CavCop CavCop is online now
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Originally Posted by AJMBLAZER View Post
You've reminded me of something with that. Another part of my limited experience with 3 round burst in training was the range instructors saying that most of the time it wouldn't work correctly and you'd have to clear a jam.
Not true at all. Burst works fine. You have to adjust your trigger pull, about like with a M249, more a snatch and hold than squeeze and release.

Burst is like your near and far back up sight. You use far most of the time, but at set times (dark, CQB, NBC) you might go near. 3 round burst works fine. Its best for close range work. At 25 to 50 meters you can get all three rounds in the chest area. Its about like the MP5 training, where you aim at the hips, pull in to your shoulder, and hold steady.

I have shot many many magazines worth of ammo on burst with no issues, other than burning the finish off the barrel. The only issues I noted with 3 round burst were bad magazines and some FN made M16A2's that were old and the finish was a worn gray with engraved markings in the mid 90's. They all sucked vs the Colts. Most did not pass inspection for bolts/bolt carriers/trigger pull/recoil spring.
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  #47  
Old 05-23-2012, 09:53 AM
AJMBLAZER AJMBLAZER is offline
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Well, that was in bootcamp and combat training. The rifles used in those two occurrences were well used, shot a lot, and handled even more. Very clean though.

I know mine jammed once on 3 round but I also have REALLY bad luck with AR's. Don't let me touch yours, it will break.
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