1911Forum
Forum   Reviews   Rules   Legal   Site Supporters & Donations   Advertise


Go Back   1911Forum > 1911 Manufacturers > Rock Island Armory


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #26  
Old 05-17-2012, 10:45 AM
BillD BillD is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: Independence, IN
Age: 60
Posts: 22,981



Quote:
Originally Posted by Kodadek View Post
I'm not talking about the PSI in the chamber but rather the battering the slide and frame from the hotter load. 9mm doesn't kick as hard, the round has less inertial mass, etc...10mm 1911s have a noted shorter lifespan than those in .45, .40 and .357 sig are ODDBALL calibers for 1911, with the exception of .40 caliber raceguns. Nor did I claim higher chamber pressure would damage the gun from say 9mm or .40 S&W. In point of fact that was an early issue with guns chambered in 9 converted to .40, the larger round has more inertial mass and for every action is an equal and opposite reaction.

As for finicky? Officer sized 1911s are notorious for needing to run just so as everything runs even faster. Just look through the RIA secton that we're in right now, bet you most problems you find come from 3 1/2 inch gun.

Never owned a finicky 1911, nor did I slight or snub the other guy. I merely pointed out that it will indeed wear the gun out quicker and that people seem to treat it like a security blanket. The latter is more of an insight than a snub. If someone does intend to go to +P at least have the good sense to invest in a heavier spring from Wolff.
So, for the sake of argument, how much faster do you think +P would wear out a gun than standard ammo?

Lets give the standard ammo 100K rounds to wear out a gun. How many rounds do of +P would it take, do you think?
__________________
You can make excuses or you can make ready.
Life is too short to buy cheap guns.
USPSA TY41889
NRA Life Member
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 05-17-2012, 11:08 AM
Kodadek Kodadek is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: The frozen reaches of the North
Age: 31
Posts: 7,591
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillD View Post
So, for the sake of argument, how much faster do you think +P would wear out a gun than standard ammo?

Lets give the standard ammo 100K rounds to wear out a gun. How many rounds do of +P would it take, do you think?
I don't have any statistical data on the subject, yet simple science, reason, and logic are all I need to know that a faster bullet=more powder=more pressure=the slide moving that much faster=more wear. How much faster I cannot say but can you argue that it would not increase wear? Where's your quantative data? Simply put the hotter loads will increase wear and parts breakage. Why people seem to find this idea so terrible and so offensive is beyond me and I can only assume it somehow offends their sensibilites like some people are offended by evolutionary theory. I know if I speed or corner fast my tires will wear more quickly then if I drive moderately and take corners at lower speeds, I do not argue this and I accept it.
__________________
One man with courage makes a majority. Andrew Jackson

"A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines." -Ralph Waldo Emerson
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 05-17-2012, 11:21 AM
BillD BillD is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: Independence, IN
Age: 60
Posts: 22,981
I didn't say I didn't agree. I think you are a little defensive on the subject. Why bring up offending sensibilities?

I'm just asking the question. And while I'm at it, has anyone worn out a 1911?

And, another one, if one uses +P for only occasional practice and carry, would it wear the gun out so much quicker?

I think you have a bias for some reason against +P. I've yet to figure out why.

It gives a little more oomph (although, there will be those who say the .45 is the only pistol round in the world that doesn't need any improvement) with little cost.
__________________
You can make excuses or you can make ready.
Life is too short to buy cheap guns.
USPSA TY41889
NRA Life Member
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 05-18-2012, 02:19 AM
Grampaw Grampaw is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Pacific North Wet
Age: 74
Posts: 416
My RIA 38 Super, one could say was a 9mm +P+, and it is not showing any more signs of wear than ANY other 1911 of the same or older vintage.
__________________
HM2 FMF
Animal Hospital and Taxidermist Either way you get your pet back
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 05-18-2012, 07:39 AM
ta2dave76 ta2dave76 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: las vegas, nv
Posts: 76
I was just given 150rnds of +p rangerT. I'm going to run a few through my gi this weekend for function test. If I have no issues, this will be my carry ammo.

Since they were free, I might as well put them to use.
Reply With Quote
  #31  
Old 05-18-2012, 01:01 PM
gobe gobe is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Missouri
Posts: 41
I guess it just slipped my mind that 1911's are made in calibers other than .45 ACP. If I had a 9mm, I'd probably carry +P, but not in the .45.
Reply With Quote
  #32  
Old 05-22-2012, 03:28 AM
Kodadek Kodadek is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: The frozen reaches of the North
Age: 31
Posts: 7,591
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillD View Post
I didn't say I didn't agree. I think you are a little defensive on the subject. Why bring up offending sensibilities?

I'm just asking the question. And while I'm at it, has anyone worn out a 1911?

And, another one, if one uses +P for only occasional practice and carry, would it wear the gun out so much quicker?

I think you have a bias for some reason against +P. I've yet to figure out why.

It gives a little more oomph (although, there will be those who say the .45 is the only pistol round in the world that doesn't need any improvement) with little cost.
I openly admit to bias against it and any other handgun round that people tout as magic because of an extra hundred FPS. I'm biased against marketing hype, which is exactly what it equates to. What was originally a designation to keep people from using .38 super in .38 ACP pistols suddenly became the big buzzword, the verbal safety blanket. A good way to keep idgits from blowing up their 1900 or 1902 suddenly became an even better way to sell ammo far as I'm concerned.

There are loads and loads, reams and reams of data on the effectiveness of various rounds in their use against live targets that walk on two legs. Online, in books, never have I seen anything that's swayed me to believe that extra oomph is worth that extra couple of dollars.

Would it wear the gun down faster if it was used for infrequent practice and carry? Well, it would likely have little to no effect, that's a very obvious answer; however, let me ask you a simple question. You shoot standard loads 99% of the time, one percent of the time you shoot +P ammo and you carry with +P ammo. Which one are you going to perform better with? The round you shoot 99% of the time or the round you shoot 1% of the time? Your muscle memory is going to be more attuned to which one? Your point of aim and desire to shoot to said point of aim is going to be based on which one? See, I can ask questions as well. Where's the reward for doing very little if any training with one round and doing all your training with another? Maybe I'm just too damn stupid to catch up with y'all and I just don't get such a training paradigm and the genius behind it.

Has anyone worn out a 1911? Not me personally but I'd wager someone has...wouldn't you? It's a manmade device that over time wears down and breaks. Stands to reason on could be rendered unservicable if not outright irreparable. Same goes for the Glock, XD, M&P, and any other gun be it long or short you care to name. How does the old saying go? If you have to ask?

Defensive? Negative, I'm outright offensive on the subject and I make no bones about it. Why should I bother?
__________________
One man with courage makes a majority. Andrew Jackson

"A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines." -Ralph Waldo Emerson

Last edited by Kodadek; 05-22-2012 at 03:33 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #33  
Old 05-22-2012, 11:28 AM
BillD BillD is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: Independence, IN
Age: 60
Posts: 22,981
One thing about gaining a little age is one tends to realize that they aren't right as often as they thought...

Hmmm, I'm pretty sure I never said it was magic. When one can up the velocity of a handgun round by over 10%, I'd say that was significant.


On one hand you say the added oomph is not very much and on the other hand you ask how (if one doesn't train all the time with +P) is one to deal with the additional, what recoil, blast, different round?

Dr Roberts has at least one on his list of approved defensive loads for .45 acp. But, you being such an expert and all, probably don't care.

Tell you what, you go on hating it, I'll go on liking it. And the world will still turn.
__________________
You can make excuses or you can make ready.
Life is too short to buy cheap guns.
USPSA TY41889
NRA Life Member
Reply With Quote
  #34  
Old 05-23-2012, 02:20 AM
Kodadek Kodadek is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: The frozen reaches of the North
Age: 31
Posts: 7,591
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillD View Post
One thing about gaining a little age is one tends to realize that they aren't right as often as they thought...

Hmmm, I'm pretty sure I never said it was magic. When one can up the velocity of a handgun round by over 10%, I'd say that was significant.


On one hand you say the added oomph is not very much and on the other hand you ask how (if one doesn't train all the time with +P) is one to deal with the additional, what recoil, blast, different round?

Dr Roberts has at least one on his list of approved defensive loads for .45 acp. But, you being such an expert and all, probably don't care.

Tell you what, you go on hating it, I'll go on liking it. And the world will still turn.
And you claim I'm defensive? Never said you said the round was magic, just that people treat the round like it is magic. Wish I could pretend that I was sorry you've decided to take my honesty as an attack on you personally. I do not, nor am I going to start caring in the near or far future whom I might offend. Life is too short to walk on eggshells.

Another thing that comes with age is the attempt to use it to claim an odd sort of victory in matters or erudition and common sense. Thoreau once asked what the old have accomplished save for growing old. Hardly a feat in his day, less of a feat in ours. Still, if you wish to play the age card who am I to argue? It's a specious argument and I leave you to it.

Nor am I contradicting myself by claiming that the performance gained from +P ammo doesn't justify the price tag or the hype and then pointing out that it will indeed have stouter recoil. It's common sense that a person training with a regular 230 grain load is going to be used to the felt recoil from that round when compared to a +P loading going a hundred or so FPS faster. That extra kick does not equate to a massive improveent in terminal performance...it's just an acknowledgement of basic phyiscis. More velocity pushing the same mass will result in more...you guessed it...recoil. Also, it would not have the same point of impact. This all stems from my questioning why one would train very little with +P and carry it...which seemed more like a congenial admission that it will indeed cause more wear and parts breakage. All I was asking was then what else would you train with? I personally use 185 grain SWCs that shoot to the same POI as my XTPs in the same weight. I use the same amount of power pistol behind each round, the same bullet weight, etc.... I assume that if one were to train just a little with +P that most of their training/shooting with their defensive arm would be with standard pressure ammunition. It leads me to ask why one would do the bulk of their shooting with one round and shoot just enough of another to get a warm "Fuzzy" feeling about it. It was after all your suggestion and inquiring minds, or at least this inquiring mind was skeptical as to the wisdom of said approach. You did advocate shooting very little +P and using it for carry did you not?

So? Doctor Roberts likes it? Well hell, that settles it! I'm dumping all my reloads, trading in my truck, my dog, and selling the family spread and investing in a lifetime supply. A Doctor supports it so it must be good!

Will the world keep turning? Yes. Will I laugh as it turns? Endlessly.
__________________
One man with courage makes a majority. Andrew Jackson

"A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines." -Ralph Waldo Emerson

Last edited by Kodadek; 05-23-2012 at 02:35 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #35  
Old 05-23-2012, 08:44 AM
Cappi Cappi is online now
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 7,411
Your Rock will handle +P pressures just fine




Quote:
little age is one tends to realize that they aren't right as often as they thought
at 54, I've learned I don't know everything..
I just think i do ....


+P ammo...i personally stoke all my carry/defense pistols with it.
Will it make a BIG difference if i have to stop a threat?
(God forbid I ever find myself in that situation)
donno, but I'm an advocate of using the largest and hottest rnd one can effectively shoot fast and accurately

My chrono has shown that +P will launch a 230gr slug at 960 fps in 5" barrel .
I think that's better than 870-900 fps most defense 230 gr roll

as far practice with standard pressure ball and carrying +P wonderslugs ..
as a practical matter, I don't think it makes a dimes worth of difference .
(contingent on being familiar with pistol and proficient)

Cause in a defense situation, you'll be "going cold" .
I don't know about ya'll, but there's not a dimes worth of difference in my shooting when doing the first live fire cold presentation drill between +P or standard pressure .

going "cold" It takes me 2 to 2.5 seconds to put 2 shots on the target .
The first shot is generally always "in the zone" (8" circle) , the second isn't always in the zone

after a dozen or so presentation drills my times are down to 1.6 to 1.9 seconds with both shots in the 8" circle .
Doesn't make any difference whether I'm using standard pressure ball or +P either .
The pistol bucks and sights drop back into place with no noticeable time difference with any ammo


YMMV



.L.T.A.
__________________
K.I.S.S.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:31 PM.


NOTICE TO USERS OF THIS SITE: By continuing to use this site, you certify that you have read and agree to abide by the Legal Terms of Use. All information, data, text or other materials ("Content") posted to this site by any users are the sole responsibility of those users. 1911Forum does not guarantee the accuracy, integrity, or quality of such Content.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2014 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Copyright 2011 1911Forum.com, LLC. All Rights Reserved