House Loads/Federal Guard Dog

[ggun]

Josh,

It looks like I found a good person to talk with in you. Thanks for all the food for thought.

I appreciate your willingness to help me get started handloading. Someday I might self-load but I just can't pick up another hobby aspect that will take up more time right now. I will look over all your recommendations in more depth when I get a chance.

What I really want to do is use Federal Guard Dog ammo as my defensive round and then use as close to that in feel as I can get with less expensive target ammo. Then I want to make the gun as comfortable as I can with that ammo. With that goal in mind, I don't think I need to hand load. There may be a reason to do so in the near future. Is there a "low-recoil" defensive round that will be as effective as the Guard Dog? If so, I might need to hand load to match that, but I'm guessing it still may not be necessary, considering there are so many options already pre-packaged.

~Dan

[Joshua M. Smith]

Originally Posted by ggun

Josh,

It looks like I found a good person to talk with in you. Thanks for all the food for thought.

I appreciate your willingness to help me get started handloading. Someday I might self-load but I just can't pick up another hobby aspect that will take up more time right now. I will look over all your recommendations in more depth when I get a chance.

What I really want to do is use Federal Guard Dog ammo as my defensive round and then use as close to that in feel as I can get with less expensive target ammo. Then I want to make the gun as comfortable as I can with that ammo. With that goal in mind, I don't think I need to hand load. There may be a reason to do so in the near future. Is there a "low-recoil" defensive round that will be as effective as the Guard Dog? If so, I might need to hand load to match that, but I'm guessing it still may not be necessary, considering there are so many options already pre-packaged.

~Dan

Hi Dan,

Guard Dog eh? I wasn't aware of that stuff -- must be getting old! This looks to be the second generation of Expanding Full Metal Jacket. I tested the 124grn+P version in 9mm when it first came out. It was my first bullet test ever, in fact.

Then the Chicago PD started having trouble with it bouncing off folks in .40! I stopped carrying it and went back to Gold Dot.

I would not trust a 165 grain bullet to operate a 1911 with stock springs! Run 100 rounds through your pistol and see how many malfunctions you get. If you have even one, it's no good.

I really hesitate to recommend a handgun defensive load without knowing your living situation.

Some questions pertinent:

1. Do you live in a house or apartment?

1a. In the country or do you have close neighbors?

2. Do you live alone or with a family? Do you have clear lanes of fire?

3. What is the climate and what do folks usually wear?

These are going to be the defining factors in the choice of handgun ammo.

For now, assume that the 165gr bulldog stuff will not cycle your pistol. Load up with ball.

Regards,

Josh

P.S. I'm going to write the mods and ask them to please move this and related posts to a self-defense or ammo section and leave redirects as this is veering off-topic something fierce! J.S.

[DeltaKilo]

The 165gr Guard Dog is just a rehash of the EFMJ, which as stated, had issues with penetration and performance.

I strongly disagree with Josh's suggestion you load up with Ball, for two reasons:

1. Ball ammunition does not have as good of effect on target as a wadcutter or expanding hollowpoint, due to its profile and how tissue reacts to a bullet when it passes. In short -- it stretches, and because it stretches, and a ball round pierces rather than tears and crushes, it leaves a smaller wound cavity with less damage to tissue as it passes through. Further, it will tend to push aside structures such as arteries rather than puncture through, reducing the loss of blood.

2. Because of the hydrodynamic/aerodynamic profile of a ball load, the loads will tend to penetrate a great deal more than a wadcutter or expanding bullet. This is due to the fact that its rounded leading edge reduces the amount of tissue it must overcome initially, thus reducing the energy loss (and thereby the amount of energy expended in the target), increasing penetration.

Penetration, to a point, is worth worrying about. However, consider: to provide with an adequate stop, you must provide maximum damage on target. That means providing as much damage to tissue as possible per centimeter of travel in the body. Deeper penetration, or a through-and-through of the body, doesn't translate to more damage when the damage is confined to a long puncture wound that, because of tissue stretch, will close in on itself. Further, in these cases, the chance that major arteries will simply be pushed aside, the survivability of the wound goes up exponentially.

For these reasons, plus the fact that a good expanding hollowpoint will have limited travel through barriers compared to ball, you're better off going that route.

[Joshua M. Smith]

Originally Posted by DeltaKilo

I strongly disagree with Josh's suggestion you load up with Ball, for two reasons:

1. Ball ammunition does not have as good of effect on target as a wadcutter or expanding hollowpoint, due to its profile and how tissue reacts to a bullet when it passes. In short -- it stretches, and because it stretches, and a ball round pierces rather than tears and crushes, it leaves a smaller wound cavity with less damage to tissue as it passes through. Further, it will tend to push aside structures such as arteries rather than puncture through, reducing the loss of blood.

2. Because of the hydrodynamic/aerodynamic profile of a ball load, the loads will tend to penetrate a great deal more than a wadcutter or expanding bullet. This is due to the fact that its rounded leading edge reduces the amount of tissue it must overcome initially, thus reducing the energy loss (and thereby the amount of energy expended in the target), increasing penetration.

Delta,

I disagree with myself as well, for the points you made!

My reasoning is this: He has Guard Dog at the moment. We're not sure how or if it will operate in his 1911.

Since function is first and foremost, I recommended he load up with the ball ammo he shoots now only until we can sort out what will work.

You see, I'd rather see him be alive to fight a charge than to die with a pistol that malfunctioned because the ammo was too light.

I wouldn't trust a standard-sprung 1911 down past 185 grains.

Right now, I'm thinking a 185 grain Federal self-defense load would be best, but again, we're waiting to see his living arrangements and what all he needs to worry about using a 1911 for a defensive handgun.

From the recoil-sensitivity he states he has, I'm almost thinking a Browning High Power would be better for him, loaded with Cor®Bon 90 grain Casino Loads would be about best, especially if he lives in an apartment.

Otherwise, Federal 9BPLE would be a good choice.

Performance with minimal recoil is what we're going for here.

Regards,

Josh

[Bill Mannatt]

Guard Dog???? I swear,ammo companies are really sinking to to new lows with the stupid names now.Let's see,Guard Dog,and Zombie........man,I'm waiting with bated breath for some new,really ferocious stuff like.....PO'd Poodle,Undead Dum Dum,Foaming at The Mouth Ankle Biter,and other terrifying names.You know..........stuff that the mere display of the ammo box will make 'em throw up their hands,or faint dead away.I need to hurl.

[TTAC]

We are guessing you are talking about the .45 cal. The Gaurd dog is a expensive, unprovern round. There are better choices.
I'm running Speer 230 gr. gold Dots in my .45

[Joshua M. Smith]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WA7f69skz9g

Not my test.

Exact same underwhelming performance I was getting from the original EFMJ in 105grn. 124grn was a little better, about like a standard hollowpoint.

Josh

[DeltaKilo]

Originally Posted by Bill Mannatt

Guard Dog???? I swear,ammo companies are really sinking to to new lows with the stupid names now.Let's see,Guard Dog,and Zombie........man,I'm waiting with bated breath for some new,really ferocious stuff like.....PO'd Poodle,Undead Dum Dum,Foaming at The Mouth Ankle Biter,and other terrifying names.You know..........stuff that the mere display of the ammo box will make 'em throw up their hands,or faint dead away.I need to hurl.

Bill, we get you don't like the naming conventions. It's marketing, and has no bearing on the discussion of the ammunition itself.

[Bentech05]

Originally Posted by Joshua M. Smith

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WA7f69skz9g

^^^That guy does some really great ammo reviews, I love his channel. If the OP wants to see some great backyard testing of SD/HD ammo check out his videos.

[DeltaKilo]

His testing is OK, however I have my reservations from a quality/repeatability perspective. He's mostly right, however.

[ggun]

I've been OTL for a while but back. That youtube was good. Thanks for the comments; I had followed up with Josh by PM previously. And I agree, I keep my guns loaded with only what I've tested and currently that's Hydra-Shok 165 gr 1060 fps in my 1911 and target loads in my other guns which I have not tested defensive ammo in. The Guard Dog works fine in my P220 so that's what it's loaded with right now, but (even prior to this thread) I've been considering moving to Hornady Critical Defense or XTP.

OK, get ready for this: I'm also going to be testing an 18.5 lb recoiler the next time I go out, and since I have the Guard Doggies anyway and need to shoot them regardless, I'll be able to see how the gun works with those loads, apart from their legitimacy as defensive rounds go. I'd like to know what will at least work in the gun since I have the ammo on hand.

But now for the 165 or 185 gr concern, not going below, what is it about the grain mass that makes you uncomfortable? Mass affects momentum directly, but velocity has twice the influence. If you've got a lot higher velocity with a 165 grain load that equals the momentum of a 230 gr load and yet has much more energy as well, what is the concern with cycling? I ask this not to defend the Guard Dog, I think the video took the rug out from under that dog, but just on the cycling reliability issue?

[jfwest]

No ammo goes into any of my carry or night stand guns for its intended purpose until I have run 50 rds. or so down the pipe. I want to know how it shoots and where it shoots.

Been trying some Federal HST'S in my 9's and 45's. I am happy with the 124gr. +P 9's, still working on the 230gr. 45's. For now, my 200gr. XTP/HP reloads are still being carried.

[220swiftfn]

If there's a question as to what functions in the OP's firearm, the two loads that feed the most like ball IME are WWB hollowpoint and Remington golden saber. If neither of THOSE feed, you really have a problem.....

To the OP.... As far as I'm aware, California has no law against using hollowpoints, (Unlike the Guard Dog's target market; ie New Jersey) so why are you limiting yourself to unproven / inferior performing ammunition??


Dan

[DeltaKilo]

Originally Posted by ggun

I've been OTL for a while but back. That youtube was good. Thanks for the comments; I had followed up with Josh by PM previously. And I agree, I keep my guns loaded with only what I've tested and currently that's Hydra-Shok 165 gr 1060 fps in my 1911 and target loads in my other guns which I have not tested defensive ammo in. The Guard Dog works fine in my P220 so that's what it's loaded with right now, but (even prior to this thread) I've been considering moving to Hornady Critical Defense or XTP.

OK, get ready for this: I'm also going to be testing an 18.5 lb recoiler the next time I go out, and since I have the Guard Doggies anyway and need to shoot them regardless, I'll be able to see how the gun works with those loads, apart from their legitimacy as defensive rounds go. I'd like to know what will at least work in the gun since I have the ammo on hand.

But now for the 165 or 185 gr concern, not going below, what is it about the grain mass that makes you uncomfortable? Mass affects momentum directly, but velocity has twice the influence. If you've got a lot higher velocity with a 165 grain load that equals the momentum of a 230 gr load and yet has much more energy as well, what is the concern with cycling? I ask this not to defend the Guard Dog, I think the video took the rug out from under that dog, but just on the cycling reliability issue?

Josh's concern is that if the load is a light enough load, it may not generate enough recoil energy, but it's hogwash, many of the light loads work fine.

The main area of concern for me is that anything below about a 200gr projectile in .45 ACP is unreliable at best for defensive scenarios based on real world encounters and data gathered from them. In most cases, even with proper shot placement, light bullets suffer from catastrophic failures, massive deviations from the target zone, failure to penetrate bone or other significant structures, and shallow penetration.

I wouldn't be worried about reliability issues with the gun as much as I would be worried about effect on target.

[ggun]

I think I moved to the Guard Dog after reading that .45 caliber in particular has a history of hollow points not opening due to low velocity. When I conducted my own test on a refrigerator, the hollow points had roughly the same exit hole as the target FMJs but the EFMJ had an exit about twice the size. It's probably only a 2% chance that I would ever get attacked by a refrigerator, but that was what was available to shoot at the time. I thought it at least did not contradict what I had read.

Being that Hornady Critical Defense is the same idea, would you lump them together with the Guard Dogs on this?

[DeltaKilo]

Originally Posted by ggun

I think I moved to the Guard Dog after reading that .45 caliber in particular has a history of hollow points not opening due to low velocity. When I conducted my own test on a refrigerator, the hollow points had roughly the same exit hole as the target FMJs but the EFMJ had an exit about twice the size. It's probably only a 2% chance that I would ever get attacked by a refrigerator, but that was what was available to shoot at the time. I thought it at least did not contradict what I had read.

Being that Hornady Critical Defense is the same idea, would you lump them together with the Guard Dogs on this?

First, whenever you shoot a hollowpoint into steel or some other kind of hard barrier, it likely will plug due to crushing/damage to the hollowpoint. I'm not surprised at all.

That said, critical defense is likely roughly equal, since whatever gains you would get from the 185gr weight, you lose from the fact that its designed to fragment and penetrate shallowly.

Neither are anywhere near the top of my list of optimum choices.

[220swiftfn]

Originally Posted by ggun

I think I moved to the Guard Dog after reading that .45 caliber in particular has a history of hollow points not opening due to low velocity. When I conducted my own test on a refrigerator, the hollow points had roughly the same exit hole as the target FMJs but the EFMJ had an exit about twice the size. It's probably only a 2% chance that I would ever get attacked by a refrigerator, but that was what was available to shoot at the time. I thought it at least did not contradict what I had read.

Being that Hornady Critical Defense is the same idea, would you lump them together with the Guard Dogs on this?

Add to that the fact that the interior of a refrigerator (air) isn't too conducive to projectile expansion, you might say that your data's "flawed". The "failure to expand due to low velocity" WAS a problem, back in the Super-Vel days, but just about anything from the last 30 years or so has been designed to work at "normal" velocity... Some of the most highly recommended rounds are actually of this group (Winchester RA45T is in essence a 20 year old design, but it's a GOOD one, and still works well, same as Remington's Golden Saber and a little more recently, Speer's Gold Dot...)


Dan

[ggun]

Well I guess I should start looking into different ammo then. Thanks for the comments.

What about Hornady XTP? 200 gr, 900 fps.

[DeltaKilo]

Originally Posted by ggun

Well I guess I should start looking into different ammo then. Thanks for the comments.

What about Hornady XTP? 200 gr, 900 fps.

XTP ammo is decent, however it is a non-bonded load that suffers from relatively small expansion, and often failures to expand or core/jacket separations.

In hunting where barriers such as clothing or other obstructions are no issue, the XTP excels.

However, due to relatively small expansion and other factors, it's not what I would call an ideal choice for self defense.

[ggun]

OK, thanks very much.

[DeltaKilo]

Originally Posted by ggun

OK, thanks very much.

Check out the Self Defense and Duty Loads sticky. That's the best resource of proven, researched, and tested loads.

[ggun]

Have done so and continuing to acquire knowledge on the subject. Thanks again.

[Scotty45]

...new WC LW Commander that I'm testing tomorrow for reliability for EDC. I bought several boxes of 165 grain Guard Dog and 165 grain "low recoil" Hydra Shoks. Also have a few boxes of 185-grain Hornady Z-Max (hate to buy into the zombie thing but no Critical Defense available and it's virtually the same).

The issue I'm already facing with the shorter slide stroke of the 4.25" slide and recoil springs is a concern, but if these work, I will carry a different load for my backup magazine. Current load in full-size Combat Elite are Ranger-T 230 grain.

I don't expect to be recoil sensitive to the 230 grains, but assuming I loads 165 or 185 as my carry load and my spare mag has a different weight? Shouldn't be an issue if my pistol is EMPTY but a half-empty tactical reload will leave me with a light round in the chamber and then a full mag of a different weighted ammo.

See my concern? If I fire twice more I could face a jam from the change to the heavier bullet weight. If I carry 165 gr and switch to 185, it's not as drastic of a change, but either to 230 grain is pretty big.

I could test this tomorrow, maybe just by alternating a single magazine and it would simulate that scenario several times without having to switch mags constantly.

[Che]

Scotty after 9 months nobody cares. You should have started a new thread ..

[Scotty45]

My bad...I should know better after 100 posts now. Related isn't the same and people sure hate resurrected topics about as much as, well, anything worth spitting on.

Opening a new thread and will reference the wisdom here. Thanks for the reminder...

Edited: new thread is here:

http://forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?t=405615