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  #26  
Old 05-05-2012, 10:04 AM
johnfritz johnfritz is offline
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I'm gonna grab my PXT1445S GR out of the safe and give it a little smooch on the way out the door today.
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  #27  
Old 05-05-2012, 04:26 PM
SMMAssociates SMMAssociates is offline
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I hope the Mods are paying attention....

I'm getting a little tired of these "Para guns are a pice of crap" posts....

I have three.... I've detailed the problems I had with one, with a clear "if I hadn't been too stubborn" disclaimer. The problems started a few months and a few hundred rounds into the ownership time. My second one was 100% out of the box, and still is, six years and who knows how many rounds later. The third somehow didn't have a sample tube of TW25B in the box, and it took me about 100 rounds and some experimentation (and finally asking George Wedge about suggested lubricants) to get it tamed down. It's part of my EDC rotation now....

While three guns, out of the thousands Para produced since I started buying them in 2004, isn't a really good sample, it tells me that either I got very lucky, or that three randomly selected products were just fine.

It also tells me that a guy who's had a bad experience with one, and not had it corrected, really either has problems of his own making (especially if he bought another one), or just has a vendetta in mind by posting here.

We can do without that....

There was a period where QC and CS at Para went into the dumper, but Para is working hard at fixing that, and, I think, has tried to fix the problems. Unfortunately, the pipeline is long, and who knows what guns are sold as "new" by dealers who just clean them up when they return? It's going to take a while longer....

A buddy of mine bought a Springfield EMP a while back. Beautiful little 1911 clone in 9mm. (They shrunk it!) He got a superb price because it was used, but with very little through it. Jam-o-matic! Genuine "use it for a truck chock" gun....

We finally sorted it out. The original owner (and my buddy) had tried to use cases once fired (not necessarily "once fired") in a Glock, with some case head support issues. These things just wouldn't fit into the chamber. (His other Springer, an old GM sized 1911, will nearly feed ammunition placed in the magazine backwards. ) A $30 full length resizing die fixed that. (The dealer didn't talk about "problems", but did tell him that it was used.)

My own Springfield experience was a little less of a problem - I had an XD9SC that would occasionally refuse to fully eject a round. Close the slide over it and try again, and the case wouldn't come out of the chamber without using a stick! Some combination of case wear/roughness and a little dirt.... But does that make it junk?

(I polished the chamber a bit, but decided not to get aggressive. Eventually swapped it off.)

Or, there's my Kimber. Little "Compact Custom". NIB but it'd had been sitting on the dealer's shelf for so long that the grips were trashed. 100% right out of the box, and I didn't like the grips anyway . My buddy liked mine so much he went out and bought a similar model. That one went back four times! (This was before the QC stuff hit the fan.)

Junk? Nah - it's a great gun. He just won't let me fix it - something about the 10# sledge bothers him....

It's OK, IMHO, to describe your problems, and ask for help. It's NOT OK, IMHO, to rant like that....

We're supposed to be adults....

Regards,
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  #28  
Old 05-05-2012, 05:52 PM
potis potis is offline
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So much NEGATIVITY with PARA.
I have a Black Watch Companion LDA.
Man its one of the best (accurate, reliable) guns I have (Glocks, Beretta's Sig's)

thousands of rounds, no problems.

Last edited by potis; 05-05-2012 at 05:56 PM.
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  #29  
Old 05-05-2012, 09:28 PM
beasty beasty is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Shootist View Post
I've been a competition shooter and trainer for 30 years

One thing is still the same

Most Para's are pure crap.

I have owned and sold over a dozen--- PURE CRAP
I'm just curious, If they're so bad, why did you keep buying them?
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  #30  
Old 05-06-2012, 05:10 AM
farduino farduino is offline
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I have 2 Para's one a GI Expert ESP and the other a Para LTC. Had a 2 problems with the LTC and none with the Expert. Sent the LTC back to Para and they corrected the problem quickly. I wouldn't trade these 2 guns for anything and I carry the LTC. Para's customer service has been top notch and I will buy another!!!
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  #31  
Old 05-12-2012, 09:49 PM
peacebutready peacebutready is offline
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Qc, cs

Quote:
Originally Posted by SMMAssociates View Post
I'm getting a little tired of these "Para guns are a pice of crap" posts....


It also tells me that a guy who's had a bad experience with one, and not had it corrected, really either has problems of his own making (especially if he bought another one), or just has a vendetta in mind by posting here.

We can do without that....

There was a period where QC and CS at Para went into the dumper, but Para is working hard at fixing that, and, I think, has tried to fix the problems. Unfortunately, the pipeline is long, and who knows what guns are sold as "new" by dealers who just clean them up when they return? It's going to take a while longer....

A buddy of mine bought a Springfield EMP a while back. Beautiful little 1911 clone in 9mm. (They shrunk it!) He got a superb price because it was used, but with very little through it. Jam-o-matic! Genuine "use it for a truck chock" gun....

My own Springfield experience was a little less of a problem - I had an XD9SC that would occasionally refuse to fully eject a round. Close the slide over it and try again, and the case wouldn't come out of the chamber without using a stick! Some combination of case wear/roughness and a little dirt.... But does that make it junk?

Or, there's my Kimber. Little "Compact Custom". NIB but it'd had been sitting on the dealer's shelf for so long that the grips were trashed. 100% right out of the box, and I didn't like the grips anyway . My buddy liked mine so much he went out and bought a similar model. That one went back four times! (This was before the QC stuff hit the fan.)

Junk? Nah - it's a great gun. He just won't let me fix it - something about the 10# sledge bothers him....

It's OK, IMHO, to describe your problems, and ask for help. It's NOT OK, IMHO, to rant like that....

We're supposed to be adults....

Regards,
I bought my GI Expert in '11 and have had problems with it. 440 rounds through it and it has not become more reliable. I've only used ball ammo (a few brands). FTF's and premature slide lock-backs.

I don't know if the move to N.C. is a valid excuse. If there are a relatively high amount of problem products, test them more, even if that requires hiring new or temporary labor. If there are problems with the product, don't let them out the door until they are squared away. If the product can't be squared away, chuck the bad ones and bite the bullet. If someone got a bad one during this period, offer to pay shipping back.

Agreed that Para is working hard now to fix the problems.

The Springfield EMP; was it one of their first ones or did the previous owner tamper with it?

The Springfield XD9sc; "case wear/roughness" should not even have brought that model up for an example, assuming the case wear and roughness is referring to the ammo used in it.

The Kimber that went back 4 times; that isn't enough to be considered junk?
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  #32  
Old 05-13-2012, 01:03 AM
SMMAssociates SMMAssociates is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by peacebutready View Post
I bought my GI Expert in '11 and have had problems with it. 440 rounds through it and it has not become more reliable. I've only used ball ammo (a few brands). FTF's and premature slide lock-backs.
I'd vote to try other magazines, and look at feed lips. But you've probably thought of that. I got bit (my 2004 Tac-Four) by a bad slide stop, which mucked up the slide's timing. A bent drop safety actuator lever can also do that. Has Para seen the gun?

Quote:
I don't know if the move to N.C. is a valid excuse. If there are a relatively high amount of problem products, test them more, even if that requires hiring new or temporary labor. If there are problems with the product, don't let them out the door until they are squared away. If the product can't be squared away, chuck the bad ones and bite the bullet. If someone got a bad one during this period, offer to pay shipping back.
Kind of a double-decker - IMHO, the move to NC resulted in a "who cares?" attitude in Canada as production there wound down, and I'm not sure about the assembly function, which had been in FL, I think. I think Para got bit by an extreme uptick in orders at the same time, too. That said, a prepaid return still might have been the only really good solution. Throwing other (temporary) people at the problem probably took a back seat to training the primary production & testing people.

The upside (for Para) of not using a prepaid return is that they don't necessarily get the simple stuff. However, some really silly things have happened there, too - somebody reported a bad PXT, and was asked to return the gun on their own nickel, as I recall.

Quote:
The Springfield EMP; was it one of their first ones or did the previous owner tamper with it?
I'm not sure about the date on the EMP. They'd been out for a while when Joe bought his, though. No evidence of any tampering - the thing has a tight chamber, and the Glocks are a little sloppy on case head support. The result is a bulge at the base of the case, under the rim. Probably harmless, but the tight EMP chamber didn't want to go into battery with those. We tried some WWB that I had with me, and they were fine. It appears that the original purchaser had the same case sources, and gave up.

Quote:
The Springfield XD9sc; "case wear/roughness" should not even have brought that model up for an example, assuming the case wear and roughness is referring to the ammo used in it.
'Bout all I can say is that it also had a tight chamber. This only happened after few rounds went through a previously cleaned chamber, and seemed to only happen with bulk reloads (Mastercast or Ultramax in my case). WWB and virgin factory loads were fine. I did some polishing, but it wasn't sufficient, and ignored it, other than knowing how to clear it easily.

Quote:
The Kimber that went back 4 times; that isn't enough to be considered junk?
The Kimber scared Joe - he won't carry it now, although it works fine. Each time resulted in some indication of work having been done, but it never quite got it together. What finally got the gun into "good enough for the range" quality was to just shoot the heck out of it without cleaning. It's also a lot more reliable since Joe started using that same sort of sizing die on his .45 reloads. Junk? Nah.... But it never seemed that Kimber's CS people did anything while they had the gun. Junk? Nah - just bad CS....

I know I've mentioned the problems I had with a Tac-Four back in 2004. Drove me a little nuts, but I was simply too stubborn to ship it back. Turned out to be a bad slide stop.... Para CS could have figured that out in a couple minutes, I'm sure, but junk?

If a gun can't be repaired, it's junk.... About anything else is another problem....

Regards,
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Why do those who claim to want to protect me feel that to do it they need to disarm me?

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  #33  
Old 05-13-2012, 07:26 AM
tx_oil tx_oil is offline
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Remember.. some folks cannot make it through the day without a tall cold glass of Haterade. Brings to mind the old timer at the hardware store, farting through a wicker chair while declaiming that Fords are crap, he's been driving them for 40 years...
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  #34  
Old 05-13-2012, 11:53 AM
SMMAssociates SMMAssociates is offline
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tx oil:

ROF,L!

35 years for me, give or take, not counting four my wife had.

(She had a Pinto. The "behind the plastic covers" work was hilariously cheap/crap/etc., but the thing ran well, and kept her reasonably intact during a slow-speed head-on. I'm still driving a '99 Town Car. She's got a '98 DeVille now. We inherited it from mom, who managed to put less than 30,000 miles on it. The wife drives a lot, but the car either needs mileage or a berth at a museum. By the time it really goes into the dumper, we probably will only need one car anyway, and I want a Miata .)

Regards,
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Why do those who claim to want to protect me feel that to do it they need to disarm me?

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  #35  
Old 05-13-2012, 12:43 PM
TacoBobbo TacoBobbo is offline
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Hatorade? I always learn something new and useful on this site.
Bob
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  #36  
Old 05-13-2012, 01:07 PM
Tombstone997 Tombstone997 is offline
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my 600$ mil spec has blown off 2K+ rounds without a malfunction. I properly maintain it, but ive fired up to 5 boxes in a range day without cleaning. It took about 500 rounds to get it broke in and working nice and smoothe though
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  #37  
Old 05-15-2012, 09:54 AM
Mick Finn Mick Finn is offline
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Got the gun (such as it is) back last week. Tried to put rounds through. Had a whole string of 4-5 before it went to heck. Failure to load everyother to every shot. Going to try one last time this week. Would like to know if Para does buybacks of products customers are EXTREMELY unsatisfied with. Or if it is buyer beware (a.k.a. haha sucker). Will give a full update when can. Inbetween classes atm. Thanks again.
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  #38  
Old 05-15-2012, 07:56 PM
johnfritz johnfritz is offline
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Let Travis know. He'll make things right for you one way or another.

I know, talk is cheap. I can't come up with any excuse for a gun to be returned to the customer from being repaired and having it behave like yours did. Give them another chance is all I'm saying. You have a nice gun. They'll fix it for you.
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  #39  
Old 05-16-2012, 03:34 AM
SMMAssociates SMMAssociates is offline
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Mick:

I'll second johnfritz - see if Travis can help....

Before you run for the FedEx terminal again, though, find another person to shoot the thing.... The Expert should NOT be particularly subject to limp-wristing, but individual shooters handle guns differently, and the guy who tests yours at the CS center may have wrists like my dad. (He's deceased now, but was a Dentist. His left wrist was big enough to require custom watchbands, and his right even bigger - from flipping teeth out of jaws all day .)

I'd also check that slide stop.... They can work for a while, and then go goofy on you. Simple test - with the slide "in battery", see if you can push the stop out of the frame. ANY movement (beyond a couple mm) is a defect.... (In my old Tac-Four, I could push the thing right out of the frame - didn't realize that for about 14 months of mucking around with it!) The "out" position can rub on the underside of the slide, and cause timing issues. Likewise, look at the drop safety levers - are they perfectly flat, and not rubbing on the underside of the slide?

(You can remove the entire drop safety - plunger & spring in the slide, and the two levers in the frame, for testing. You need to put the levers back to avoid some really unpleasant wear, but you can get a "dummy" top lever from Brownells for something like $10, and leave the plunger & spring out of the slide. DO plan on cleaning the slide's innards more often than usual, though.)

Ran into a situation a few months back - a guy showed up on the club range with a brand new gun - Beretta M9. Couldn't hit anything.... Lots of friendly advice, but nothing.... He figured he'd gotten himself a real lemon. Then I shot it just fine, as did my buddy Joe, and a couple more of us. The new owner just didn't quite have holding that gun right.... (I'm no uber-expert. Just lots of practice at "fair" .)

Joe's son's M9, btw, one day decided that putting a bullet into the same zip code as the target was verboten. All kinds of goofy problems. Put the top on Joe's M9 frame, and it was fine, and vice versa, but they didn't work together at all.... Out of nowhere!

Joe happened to look at the rear of the slide. Something had put a bit of solid crud on the rear face of the slide, the part that impacts the hammer to cock it during recoil. Timing.... A little elbow grease and it was fine.... (The M9's got a cocking rail on the bottom rear of the slide that's almost the same as the 1911's.)

Regards,
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Why write a quick note when you can write a novel?

Why do those who claim to want to protect me feel that to do it they need to disarm me?

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  #40  
Old 05-16-2012, 02:05 PM
alazgr8 alazgr8 is offline
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I have two Para's a P-16, and a P-14. Both have functioned flawlessly in the 18 years I have owned them. I shot IPSC for over 10 years with the P-16, 1000's and 1000's of rounds thru it and never a failure, unless it was my fault (such as rubbing the slide against a barrier). That being said, I'd be pretty pissed to have a gun that gave me as much trouble as Mick Finn's is giving him.

My only comment, or question, and maybe Travis will answer. How many rounds does Customer Service/repair run thru a returned firearm, and what ammo do they use before they decide the problem is solved and send it back? I have several/many weapons, and I have never had to send anything back. I think my experience is more typical of the average gun owner rather than luck.

Regards,

Rick
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  #41  
Old 05-18-2012, 07:42 PM
Martensite Martensite is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Shootist View Post
I've been a competition shooter and trainer for 30 years

One thing is still the same

Most Para's are pure crap.

I have owned and sold over a dozen--- PURE CRAP
Opinions are what make the world go around. Everyone has one (you know...like butt-holes). This is a free country so I for one appreciate your opinion.

Another thing...you posted this in the Para section of the forum so you're bound to get jumped on. What did you think would happen?...did you think the members here would be giving you atta-boys and would be posting up pics of lollipops and rainbows after your post? LOL...

With all that said, your opinion has been duly noted in my book. I currently still have a Para on my 1911 list of wants. If after I purchase it, I have problems...you can tell me "I told you so".
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  #42  
Old 05-20-2012, 01:49 PM
Mushinto Mushinto is offline
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Just my two-cents from my own experience.

The most reliable 1911 platform is a five incher. If they do not work well, they can usually be fixed.

Anything less than that may work, but if they don't, they won't. Naturally, this does not include normal break-in. I do have several short 1911s that work great, including a Warthog.

As for Para-Ordnance guns, I had a frame kit a long time ago that I thought was not too well made. However, I have owned a Stainless P14 LDA LTD, a P-14 Signature, the aforementioned Warthog and they all run great.

ML
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  #43  
Old 05-26-2012, 03:52 AM
SVNS1XTW0 SVNS1XTW0 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by garysy View Post
I think you mis-judged what is full of crap. I know people like you they wake up not even being glad to be alive.
You really don't know me, so do not pretend to. Unlike you, when someone has dumped over a grand into something, anything, and are unhappy, I prefer to help, rather than hinder. Please take your attitude to the trash, where it obviously belongs. And just how did you get "I think you mis-judged what is full of crap." out of "You aren't helping"?
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  #44  
Old 05-26-2012, 09:10 AM
garysy garysy is offline
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I'm on the way to the dump right now, going to get rid of everything less than 5 in,
cause somebody said they weren't no good and i beleive everything I hear, and nothing I see, or did i get that backwards
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  #45  
Old 05-26-2012, 09:12 AM
johnfritz johnfritz is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by garysy View Post
I'm on the way to the dump right now, going to get rid of everything less than 5 in,
cause somebody said they weren't no good and i beleive everything I hear, and nothing I see, or did i get that backwards
HEY! There's a dump right next to my gun safe. You can leave all that stuff right there please.
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