Drop It!!

[skrap1r0n]

This is a tough hypothetical. I believe, though, that my conscience would dictate that I would draw and be ready, observe and wait. I know its an awful risk that the clerk may get shot, but more often than not, the robber will just leave with the money.

I know the situation could easily go pear-shaped, but by being ready, I can act if it does, without being the reason it does. A robber is already going to be flying on adrenaline and unpredictable and will be more likely to become violent as his control of the situation is challenged.

[ewetstone]

Originally Posted by BillD

How does that make it appear that I would welcome a confrontation?

Those courses were over a number of years.

Are you saying that one can be too prepared? That only people who are ignorant of firearms and don't train should be the only people to be able to defend themselves? That it "looks better" if the SD shooter is not ver well trained?

I shoot competition, I practice for it. How does that make me building nukes?

Sorry...you didn't mention you train for competition. Would like to know what Todd Jarrett would do in this situation. For a man that never misses...would he take it upon himself? Todd...if you are here....

[richpetrone]

Every "what if" scenario may be different. Just because the statistics show that most convenience store robberies do not end in a shooting, it doesn't mean a darn thing....you just don't know the criminal's intent.

I have been a LE officer, have had good training, shoot competitive action shooting, and practice/train at least twice per week. I have been shooting a handgun in many different disciplines for over 30 years, and I can hit what I aim at quickly and proficiently.

Even so, situational awareness is critical....and you need to think and assess the situation quickly.... thoughts that would run through my head are....
1) is the robber acting alone or are there accomplices in the store or possisbly at the front door?
2) is the robber extremely excited, aggitated, nervous as if on drugs? This could be a bad sign and someone might get shot....
3) is there a clear field of fire if the bad guy starts shooting?
4) can I slip my gun out of my holster, unseen by the preoccupied bad guy, and prepare for the worst?

If all of these questions point to a lone gunmen, that does not appear to be drugged out, I may be a "good witness to the crime." On the other hand, if the bad guy seems like he is ready to kill someone at any moment, is hostile, aggitated, and threatening......he may get shot if there is a clear field of fire.
I know I can make a head shot at 10 feet, possibly two head shots....but I would definitely go for the CNS shot to stop him.....

[ewetstone]

Originally Posted by richpetrone

Every "what if" scenario may be different. Just because the statistics show that most convenience store robberies do not end in a shooting, it doesn't mean a darn thing....you just don't know the criminal's intent.

I have been a LE officer, have had good training, shoot competitive action shooting, and practice/train at least twice per week. I have been shooting a handgun in many different disciplines for over 30 years, and I can hit what I aim at quickly and proficiently.

Even so, situational awareness is critical....and you need to think and assess the situation quickly.... thoughts that would run through my head are....
1) is the robber acting alone or are there accomplices in the store or possisbly at the front door?
2) is the robber extremely excited, aggitated, nervous as if on drugs? This could be a bad sign and someone might get shot....
3) is there a clear field of fire if the bad guy starts shooting?
4) can I slip my gun out of my holster, unseen by the preoccupied bad guy, and prepare for the worst?

If all of these questions point to a lone gunmen, that does not appear to be drugged out, I may be a "good witness to the crime." On the other hand, if the bad guy seems like he is ready to kill someone at any moment, is hostile, aggitated, and threatening......he may get shot if there is a clear field of fire.
I know I can make a head shot at 10 feet, possibly two head shots....but I would definitely go for the CNS shot to stop him.....

This is a good answer. Alot of things to consider in a few short seconds...even for an experienced LEO like we have here.

[Steelplate45]

Too many variables here. Even the best trained shooter (as above) has no guarantee of a head shot.

Further, what if you make the headshot, and later find that the perp is a 16 year old with an air soft pistol?

Or, you miss the head shot, but get a weak side shoulder hit, and he is able to put 2 rounds into your torso, with a real pistol.

Further, my 1st move would be to dive for cover, and start my draw on the way. Then assess the next move. Being an excellent shot is one thing. Being a very small target is another.

[Jim_L]

There ARE a lot of variables and I know there probably is no "right answer" but I think this whole discussion is (mostly) on the right track. It's getting where I wanted to go anyway which is getting me thinking.

I posed this same question today at work and got an angle I had never considered. While we batted it around one of my pretty mild mannered co-workers said-

If you DO just let him go and be a good witness aren't you just reinforcing his behavior? Like any predator won't he just continue to escalate the violence until he kills or gets killed? He's not going to buy groceries with that money you know. He's going to buy drugs, and rob again, and buy more drugs. Every time you read the paper and it's a home invasion or rape or murder you are going to wonder if it's THE guy that you let walk out.

His answer? Order him to stop and kill him if he does anything but. I was pretty surprised actually and it may have changed my opinion on this. His position was that if you are carrying a gun legally then you are obligated to stop him. This point is arguable for sure but he hits on a core truth I think. As much as you want it to be about "you and yours" it's more than that. It's about being a responsible CC holder and citizen. It's not about being right, it's about doing right regardless of what happens.

[Mr. T]

Originally Posted by Jim_L

There ARE a lot of variables and I know there probably is no "right answer" but I think this whole discussion is (mostly) on the right track. It's getting where I wanted to go anyway which is getting me thinking.

I posed this same question today at work and got an angle I had never considered. While we batted it around one of my pretty mild mannered co-workers said-

If you DO just let him go and be a good witness aren't you just reinforcing his behavior? Like any predator won't he just continue to escalate the violence until he kills or gets killed? He's not going to buy groceries with that money you know. He's going to buy drugs, and rob again, and buy more drugs. Every time you read the paper and it's a home invasion or rape or murder you are going to wonder if it's THE guy that you let walk out.

His answer? Order him to stop and kill him if he does anything but. I was pretty surprised actually and it may have changed my opinion on this. His position was that if you are carrying a gun legally then you are obligated to stop him. This point is arguable for sure but he hits on a core truth I think. As much as you want it to be about "you and yours" it's more than that. It's about being a responsible CC holder and citizen. It's not about being right, it's about doing right regardless of what happens.

I disagree with his opinion. If my life is not in immediate danger, I have no duty to stop a criminal. It is actually about being right. Trying to intervene if the circumstances are right is one thing, but it is always comes back to me and mine. I am no good to my family if I get killed trying to stop someone. A concealed carry permit doesn't give you the right to play LEO. If I am not in immediate danger, I am not going to try to stop a criminal from robbing a business. All of the self-defense instructors I have been to instructed the students to be a good witness unless you are in immediate danger.

[pleasant1911]

To previous post...yes MD has one of the toughest gun laws. It's safe to say about 90 percent or more do not carry in md bc it's illegal unless you meet the strict requirements. And about 90 percent can't meet requirements to carry. So shooting anyone in md to defend yourself in a public or private business/place is not enough thought of ...sucks.

I can due to my business but not as hardcore...per se as others in ccw states. But I do okay. Maryland is in federal court now on ccw issue, but I doubt it...

And I would only shoot through my jacket if he is next to me in checkout line. And then my second and after shots would be out in front of me. I train to shoot my lcp as I push you away with left palm and the barrel from the right and I push to your body, shoulder, anything...

[Jim_L]

Like I said it's arguable for sure.

You could make the argument that the person with the gun pointed a a person in a room full of people while robbing the place had already put you into a dangerous situation. In other words you ARE in immediate danger.

Again I am not agreeing or disagreeing with you, I'm just saying I can see both sides.

[Sven]

I'm glad I saw this thread. I have asked myself these questions countless times. I still don't have a clear answer. Guess I need to pray for wisdom so I take the correct action if/when the time comes.

I keep thinking about the gal a few years ago who was abducted from a C-store near here. They caught the guy and he was convicted when they found some of her bones in a burning pit behind his house. If I have the means to stop it, I won't ever let that kind of thing happen! And maybe it starts when the bad guy first draws his weapon.

[pleasant1911]

Guns pointed at me gives me tunnel vision. It happens so fast and instant that it's almost surreal... I got car jacked and it's different when you are not drawn and he is. Don't be a hero, and if you become that hero in this senerio, you ll be on GMA/today show hailed as a hero.

It's only a crime on u if somebody presses charges.

[Ringolevio]

Neumann wrote:

Always identify multiple threats. On a goose hunt, you shoot the lead goose last.

I wonder if that's where Alvin C. York learned that tactic?

[sergeant69]

Originally Posted by Steelplate45

Too many variables here. Even the best trained shooter (as above) has no guarantee of a head shot.

Further, what if you make the headshot, and later find that the perp is a 16 year old with an air soft pistol?

Or, you miss the head shot, but get a weak side shoulder hit, and he is able to put 2 rounds into your torso, with a real pistol.

Further, my 1st move would be to dive for cover, and start my draw on the way. Then assess the next move. Being an excellent shot is one thing. Being a very small target is another.

a 16 yr old w/an air soft pistol POINTING IT AT A CLERKS HEAD is bought and paid for. period.

[skrap1r0n]

Originally Posted by Sven

I'm glad I saw this thread. I have asked myself these questions countless times. I still don't have a clear answer. Guess I need to pray for wisdom so I take the correct action if/when the time comes.

I keep thinking about the gal a few years ago who was abducted from a C-store near here. They caught the guy and he was convicted when they found some of her bones in a burning pit behind his house. If I have the means to stop it, I won't ever let that kind of thing happen! And maybe it starts when the bad guy first draws his weapon.

If I saw someone being abducted, that's a whole lot different than robbing the place for cash. I would intervene in that but in a robbery, I would draw and be ready, but observe unless they turned on me or harmed anyone.

[220swiftfn]

Originally Posted by jblackfish

I think you've confused concealed carry with law enforcement. Don't escalate a robbery into a shooting - statistics show most people who "hold up" a convenience store, etc., only want the money. They usually don't want to shoot anyone...and it's just money.

Statistics only matter when you're not PART of them.... Also, many have proven that they are willing to kill to get that "just money"......


Dan

[richpetrone]

If you DO just let him go and be a good witness aren't you just reinforcing his behavior?

It is not a matter of "letting the bad guy go" it is a matter of assessing the situation to save innocent lives if needed.

Due to my training and experience, I know I can hit a head shot on a static target, a bad guy holdng a gun on a sales clerk demanding money at 10ft.
Knowing you can make the shot (confidence) to save lives is important. Also, knowing your own capabilities and limitations is also important. A person with less experience may be better off doing nothing....not to say they wouldn't like to help, but havng the mindset that you know you can get the job done is extremely important. Training to be able to hit what you aim at, under stress, with speed, is a good thing.....been doing this for years!

A person that carries concealed "should" train to improve their speed and accuracy.....but many don't. One of the biggest variables in this "What If" scenario is the person with the concealed weapon......

[jblackfish]

Originally Posted by 220swiftfn

Statistics only matter when you're not PART of them.... Also, many have proven that they are willing to kill to get that "just money"......


Dan

Saying "Statistics only matter when you're not PART of them..." is like saying knowledge doesn't matter unless someone asks you a question.

I have no problem being alert and ready to defend yourself and others if a situation turns deadly...but I'm also saying don't turn a non-deadly situation into a shootout just because you confuse concealed carry with law enforcement. In other words, I'm suggesting that the 1st shot fired (in the OP's defined situation) probably shouldn't be yours.

[Jim_L]

I am of the opinion that "the shootout" per se not real likely in any scenario although more than a few people have mentioned it now.

All the surveillance film I have ever seen it's always a shooting as opposed to a shootout. Sometimes it's the BG killing someone and sometimes it's a GG killing a BG and A LOT of times it's a bunch of cops killing a BG but it's never the classic movie/TV type shootout.

I am nearly convinced it's going to be one of three things. They rob and leave, they rob and kill or they rob and you kill them. At least that is how the tapes all seem to play out.

[dsk]

Originally Posted by Ringolevio

I wonder if that's where Alvin C. York learned that tactic?

Actually, Alvin York learned to shoot the last target in line, so that the ones in front wouldn't realize what was happening. That's how he dropped the entire German squad in their tracks without getting shot in return.

Getting back to the thread, it sounds like some of you guys better get the number of a good trial lawyer and keep it in your wallet. Walking out of the situation alive is priority #1, but making sure you don't act when you shouldn't is probably priority #2.

[Jim_L]

Lead goose would be the first in line. You guys said the same thing.

[Ringolevio]

[Originally Posted by Neumann:]
Always identify multiple threats. On a goose hunt, you shoot the lead goose last.

[Posted by Ringolevio:]
I wonder if that's where Alvin C. York learned that tactic?

dsk wrote:

Actually, Alvin York learned to shoot the last target in line, so that the ones in front wouldn't realize what was happening. That's how he dropped the entire German squad in their tracks without getting shot in return.

Jim_L wrote:

Lead goose would be the first in line. You guys said the same thing.

Thanks, Jim_L! Yup, that's what I meant! However York learned it, it was a pretty clever and effective tactic!

[220swiftfn]

Originally Posted by jblackfish

Saying "Statistics only matter when you're not PART of them..." is like saying knowledge doesn't matter unless someone asks you a question.

I have no problem being alert and ready to defend yourself and others if a situation turns deadly...but I'm also saying don't turn a non-deadly situation into a shootout just because you confuse concealed carry with law enforcement. In other words, I'm suggesting that the 1st shot fired (in the OP's defined situation) probably shouldn't be yours.

Actually, yes they are similar..... But the MEANING of what I said....
Statistically you should......
Not have to wear a seatbelt
Not have to worry about fire extinguishers
Not have to carry to protect yourself

....All of which matter greatly if you're ever attacked, in an accident, or there's a fire....

As to your second, we as law abiding armed citizens are pretty much screwed either way. Here's a hypothetical. Same convenience store as above.....

The clerk gets killed (the customer and her child too). You drop the BG.
There's a media frenzy and civil suits filed against you because you COULD have prevented this.....

You shoot the BG.
There's a media frenzy and civil suits filed against you because you're a "vigilante".



Dan

[SteedGun]

Originally Posted by TN.Frank

Not in Tennessee and not in Arizona you don't. You can use deadly force if you are in fear of death or grave bodily injury being inflicted upon you or an innocent third party. That means if a dirtbag pulls a gun on you or someone else you can shoot him in the head and not have to worry the least bit about it.
Also, in Tennessee if a person is committing a felony and you are forced to defend your self(i.e. you have to shoot him) and you miss or have a pass through and hit a third party the guy that was committing the felony gets charged with the shooting, not you, since it was because of HIS actions that you even had to shoot in the first place.

+1

You need to know the state laws! In Utah one can use deadly force to stop any type of aggravated felony. So, legally the second he points the gun at the clerk you are good good to "stop the threat" using deadly force if necessary. Now, would I shoot, good question, and I have also ran this through my head hundreds of times. I don't think anyone can say for sure how they will react but in my mind I don't plan on waiting to see what happens next. If there is a gun out and I have a good head shot I will probably shoot. I sure hope I never have to shoot.

[L84CABO]

Originally Posted by WalterGC

So, you brave souls are going to wait until the clerk or a customer is dead to start shooting!? I don't think "hero", but I also don't think gutless coward, either. What's wrong with you people? You don't feel any compunction to try to save the lives of innocents??? JHC!!!! Pathetic!!!

I must say that I find Walter's krumudgeny responses pretty entertaining

I picture a 65 year old man stadning on his porch yelling, "Get off my lawn...Damn kids!"

[Jim_L]

I've said it before, most recently with the Farmington "warning shot" guy. If you are involved in a even remotely reasonably justified shooting then a jury of your peers will never convict you. There will always be one guy who says "that could have been me". More often more than one guy....provided it is indeed a reasonable use of force.

So before you post one or two cases...Yes I'm sure you can find a few exceptions but by and large I just don't think so. Even with a public defender and even in a tightly regulated state.

The issue at hand is do you warn him first or not?