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  #26  
Old 05-05-2012, 03:03 PM
Doug M again Doug M again is offline
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The military paradigm is based on the reality of firearms and ammo of 150 years ago. It is also based on other needs and values that make sense in the military. There is a lot of folklore to it, too. I'm slow and stupid at a quick strip and wipe down of my AR, and it takes me ... 15 minutes or so. I also do it too often, maybe after 1500 rounds or so, usually after a class with Pat Rogers when I get home. It sure is not needed, and I do it only because I am too anal.

Pop out the BCG, wipe it off with a dry paper towel, a pass with a wet patch or two using SLIP 2000, a REALLY think layer of XF7, a few drops of SLIP EWL wiped on, drive on. Two passes at most with a boresnake using the SLIP 2000 cleaner, pop it all together, good to go. A decent quality well made AR should easily go 10K or more rounds with only lube, and I know of many that have gone well over 3 times that far. The only stripping needed should be for parts inspection.

Do I leave guns dirty to neglect them? No. Did I clean my 1911 more due to department inspection standards? Yup, but even then, not to white glove standards. Not productive or necessary.
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  #27  
Old 05-05-2012, 03:51 PM
Itshak Itshak is offline
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Gentelman I was teaching a combat shooting class and one of the guys with a SIG 226 kept having problems with it (problems with SIG's who ever heard of that?), so I took his gun apart and it was dirty but not too dirty that it would malfunction but it was bone dry which is something SIG's don't like the same applies to 1911's that are built tight or Kahr's or many other guns.

Now if after shooting his gun a few hundred rounds before the new class he would have cleaned it and lubed it then he would not have had this malfunctions and just imagine if he had the problems in a real fire fight because this was his EDC.

I had a good friend that loved to ski, the first time we went skiing he was complaining that his skis were not turning and when they did they would not hold on hardpack, well I asked him when he tuned and waxed his skis and he said never since he bought them last year. There is your answer any mechanical device needs maintenance, cleaning, tuning to perform to perfection or they might or will fail.

Of course ammo is cleaner then what it was in my military days and equipment is more advanced but they still requiere maintenance.
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  #28  
Old 05-05-2012, 04:11 PM
nosreme nosreme is offline
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The cynical behaviorist in me thinks there isn't any significant opposition to cleaning and lubing (which is different from understanding it has to be done but not that you have to like it). I sometimes impishly think that the most conspicuous disdain for gun-cleaning is really nothing more than part of the Rugged Man's Code. Proclaiming that you never clean or lube a gun, er, I mean weapon, or go to any pains to keep it from getting all scuffed up and dented is a big part of self-image as a rugged, independent, modern-day Marlboro man. I clean my guns after every session and the seldom-used ones every three or so months. My reputation as a rugged individualist who disdains rules, rituals, and care for things that are "just tools, anyway" is a function of me swelling with pride by announcing that I never wash my jeep.

Last edited by nosreme; 05-05-2012 at 06:58 PM.
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  #29  
Old 05-05-2012, 04:28 PM
TRSOtto TRSOtto is offline
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I'm a non cleaner. I run either Baers or Browns or WC's or a NHC through a rotation. A couple of times each summer I will run 1200-1300 rounds through a gun at a weekend class so yes, I know my guns will run that long with just lube. Most weeks though, I head to the range with 2 or 3 1911's and run a couple hundred through each one. When I get home, I just wipe em down cause I know I'm gonna dirtly em up again in the next 5-6 days. I just have other things I want to do rather than clean guns. I find it boring, tedious, monotonous...... I have no beef with those who clean theirs after every range trip. It's just something I don't enjoy doing.

Generally, when my guns hit 1000 rounds or so, I'll take em apart and thoroughly clean them.

Really....I am a nice guy otherwise...
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  #30  
Old 05-05-2012, 04:30 PM
spinks spinks is offline
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I find cleaning my guns to be very relaxing. I like to take them apart, look at the insides and then put it all back together. Of course, I clean and lube during that process. U usually do it within a day or two of shooting. I also perform monthly maintenance on my carry guns whether they get shot or not.
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  #31  
Old 05-05-2012, 05:43 PM
Herbert Cannon Herbert Cannon is offline
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I shot 1,000 rounds through my Glock 17 before I cleaned. It did not deserve a cleaning before that, besides it continued to work.
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  #32  
Old 05-05-2012, 06:21 PM
1911TotingTexan 1911TotingTexan is offline
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I don't necessarily dislike cleaning my guns. However, they may go a week or two without being cleaned after I shoot them because I don't have time that I can dedicate to clean them. Overall, cleaning is not my favorite thing to do, but I do find it relaxing.
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  #33  
Old 05-05-2012, 06:33 PM
Bigmant Bigmant is offline
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I personally clean after every session. I also think my guns work better when they're clean and they get a fresh coating of lube. My 3" Kimber for instance works much better when it's soaked in oil. And besides who wants to carry a dirty gun? Not me that's for sure.
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  #34  
Old 05-05-2012, 07:08 PM
Doug M again Doug M again is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Itshak View Post
Gentelman I was teaching a combat shooting class and one of the guys with a SIG 226 kept having problems with it (problems with SIG's who ever heard of that?), so I took his gun apart and it was dirty but not too dirty that it would malfunction but it was bone dry which is something SIG's don't like the same applies to 1911's that are built tight or Kahr's or many other guns.
*
Recent SIGs have had plenty of their own issues, but that's not the problem here. Neither is cleaning from your own description. It needed to be lubed. I remember a top shooter (Enos?) years ago saying any that would not work dirty had something wrong with it.
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  #35  
Old 05-05-2012, 07:15 PM
JetBlackGT JetBlackGT is offline
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Clean the action as often as you want. Clean the barrel only as often as it NEEDS it. It is LESS ACCURATE when clean (not that most of us would notice the difference).

The first shot was high and to the left. The group tightened up to what you see in the middle after 7 shots. 8 Shots thorough that middle hole.

What we are saying about cleaning your barrel more often than necessary is you do not increase accuracy or reliability. You decrease it. That flyer there, on the target? That's a miss on an animal. If that's the only grouse you see that day, you are out of luck. Then, you go home and what do you do? Tell me you are not going to clean it!!! You just shot it and made it slightly more accurate and now you throw that away.



This is what that .22 does with a barrel that is "unclean" at 50 yards. Those are 7 shots per target.



Here is last year's first target. Barrel had been cleaned, oiled and dried after 900+ rounds. See the first shot? That's a miss. Again, 7 shots, 50 yards.

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  #36  
Old 05-05-2012, 07:26 PM
tesla88 tesla88 is offline
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I clean and lube all my guns after use. If I shoot a few rounds I dont clean it. I have to shoot at least 50 rounds to even think about it.

Funny story, I know a guy that bought a glock 22. His first handgun. He didnt know much about it, hardly knew how to take it apart. He wanted a 1911 bad, I couldnt break it to him that it was over his head, good thing he didnt have the money for one. Well one day we were hanging out after he had got off work. He carries as he works after dark. Well he took his glock out, dropped the mag, and pulled the slide back, nothing came out. We looked at each other funny. He did it again, nothing. His new glock was failing to extract! He hadnt shot 300 rounds through this gun and he was having FTE! My more polymer knowledgeable friend helped him clean it and get it working again.

Just something to think about.
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  #37  
Old 05-05-2012, 07:38 PM
Laudanum Laudanum is offline
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Never thought much about a a code of dirty gun pride. I've read and heard the bragging about how many rounds go through without clean and lube. Even remember the guy comparing how dirty his Glock could get compared to an HK, including the bucket of mud treatment. I wasnt impressed but I thought it was funny in a sad kinda way but maybe that's just me. However I never thought about it as if those dirty gun folks keep em dirty because they like to. I figured they were just lazy
That said, I hate cleaning my guns. Any of them. I almost never shoot more than 2 guns at any range trip and a part of that is because I hate cleaning them. But I do clean them. I never clean them both the same day. I'll clean one up after the range trip and the other the next day. I admit it ... I hate it, but I do it. Maybe that makes me lazy too but not that lazy

Last edited by Laudanum; 05-05-2012 at 07:41 PM.
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  #38  
Old 05-05-2012, 08:05 PM
bunkerarms bunkerarms is offline
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I have been known to re-clean clean guns just to take them out of the safe and get reacquainted. I take a rag and oil to the gun range and have a half-time wipe down and re-lube. I also wipe my tools down before I put them back in the toolbox. What can I say, with a tool-maker / gunsmith Dad, you tend to get fanatical about clean tools and guns LOL.
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  #39  
Old 05-05-2012, 08:11 PM
Itshak Itshak is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug M again View Post
*
Recent SIGs have had plenty of their own issues, but that's not the problem here. Neither is cleaning from your own description. It needed to be lubed. I remember a top shooter (Enos?) years ago saying any that would not work dirty had something wrong with it.
That is what I said, lack of lube, but I can't see anybody adding lube on a dirty pistol it will make it like mud.
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  #40  
Old 05-05-2012, 08:31 PM
SuHu SuHu is offline
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There's some things I kept from the military, and some things I didn't. Sitting on my fourth point of contact all day trying to clean sand and dirt and carbon out of an M4 with some hilariously ineffective "cleaner" (which was really just oil) made me want to tear out my own eyes.

Now a days I use brake cleaner, a bore snake, and a nylon brush. Takes a few minutes, and even then, I only clean the firearms if they need it.

It also depends on your ammo- with that WWB garbage, I used to have to clean my 1911's after every outing simply because there was so much crap and unburned powder causing feeding problems.

Frankly, I'm not interested in purchasing any weapons that can't fire 500 (quality) rounds without needing a half hour scrubbing.
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Last edited by SuHu; 05-05-2012 at 11:39 PM. Reason: typos
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  #41  
Old 05-05-2012, 09:37 PM
Don Flynn Don Flynn is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bunkerarms View Post
I have been known to re-clean clean guns just to take them out of the safe and get reacquainted. I take a rag and oil to the gun range and have a half-time wipe down and re-lube. I also wipe my tools down before I put them back in the toolbox. What can I say, with a tool-maker / gunsmith Dad, you tend to get fanatical about clean tools and guns LOL.
I make a point of cleaning all my guns every 2-3 months if I have'nt shot them in that time...better safe than sorry.

I also clean any gun I've taken to the range that day as soon as I get home, then take a shower

About a week later I'll give those same guns a once over if I don't plan on shooting them for awhile....I figure some day I might "need" that sucker and better safe than sorry
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  #42  
Old 05-05-2012, 09:49 PM
TClark22 TClark22 is offline
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That reminds me...i need to clean my SA loaded. Put 180 rounds through it last weekend and forgot my cleaning supplies at my parents house. I did wipe the outside down with a silicone cloth to get most of the residue off the exterior.

I normally clean them after every range trip
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  #43  
Old 05-05-2012, 09:51 PM
HarryO45 HarryO45 is offline
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I am not sure that I am proud of a dirty gun.

But on the military side: During pre-operational checks we test fired our weapons before each mission (if possible). I was always more comfortable with this practice then not...especially to hear the MGs roll. I believe that ten rounds or so of proper functioning is better then a perfectly clean weapon without - at least in our minds.

As far as Action Shooting Sports, I kinda feel the same way. If I shoot every Tuesday night (40rds) and a weekend match (125rds) I might go a couple weeks, maybe more, before I fieldstrip clean my 1911. I know what my pistol can/will do and clean accordingly. I bet that I change my springs more often than many of you feel is nesasary - that is my "pet peeve" that and lube.

To me springs and lube are cheap...I don't own rusty guns, they may not always be carbon free - but they always run.

Hunting guns - yea I clean them more often then my others per round count. I seem not to shoot them as often.

HarryO45
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  #44  
Old 05-05-2012, 11:14 PM
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MoNsTeR MoNsTeR is offline
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If you can explain to me what purpose is served by frequent cleaning, I might re-consider my staunch anti-cleaning stance.

It doesn't help accuracy. It doesn't help longevity. And if you need to clean after every hundred rounds to maintain proper function, that gun is junk.

What it does is cost precious time. Spend that time dry-firing, reloading, playing with your kids, reading, basically anything else!
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  #45  
Old 05-05-2012, 11:35 PM
Itshak Itshak is offline
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Originally Posted by MoNsTeR View Post
If you can explain to me what purpose is served by frequent cleaning, I might re-consider my staunch anti-cleaning stance.

It doesn't help accuracy. It doesn't help longevity. And if you need to clean after every hundred rounds to maintain proper function, that gun is junk.

What it does is cost precious time. Spend that time dry-firing, reloading, playing with your kids, reading, basically anything else!
I don't think any thing will change your mind so do what you want, we are just expressing our opinions but like you don't want to waste time cleaning your guns i do not want to waste my time trying to convince you..
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  #46  
Old 05-06-2012, 12:59 AM
Rastoff Rastoff is offline
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Originally Posted by MoNsTeR View Post
If you can explain to me what purpose is served by frequent cleaning, I might re-consider my staunch anti-cleaning stance.

It doesn't help accuracy. It doesn't help longevity. And if you need to clean after every hundred rounds to maintain proper function, that gun is junk.

What it does is cost precious time. Spend that time dry-firing, reloading, playing with your kids, reading, basically anything else!
It does help accuracy. By keeping the trigger clean and grit free, your accuracy is better.

It does help longevity. The dirt attracted by the grease/oil will actually cause more wear on your gun. Removing the old lubricant and replacing with new will help reduce wear and therefore, increase longevity.

I agree that any gun worth its salt will go hundreds of rounds without cleaning. That is no reason to neglect your gun. See the two above statements for reasons to clean regardless of number of shots fired.


I must add, the idea of not cleaning the barrel bore for a while is intriguing. I never thought of that before. More research is necessary along this line of thinking.
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  #47  
Old 05-06-2012, 01:05 AM
LOU D LOU D is offline
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Originally Posted by Don Flynn View Post
I make a point of cleaning all my guns every 2-3 months if I have'nt shot them in that time...better safe than sorry.

I also clean any gun I've taken to the range that day as soon as I get home, then take a shower

About a week later I'll give those same guns a once over if I don't plan on shooting them for awhile....I figure some day I might "need" that sucker and better safe than sorry
Why? Better safe than sorry? Sorry about what? You'll certainly be sorry if you lose some stupid,expensive little part,or jam something up..Yeah,I know,that would never happen to you,probably Steve Irwin's last thought..Do you store it in a paper sack in the bottom of a rowboat that it needs constant maintainence even though you're not using it?If I'm not going to shoot a gun for an extended period,[for me,over a year..] I clean it,and put it away.If it's stored properly,it's the same when I take it outa the pistol rug as it was five years ago,like storing a wind up wristwatch.All you're doing is putting unnecessary wear on your guns for no reason..
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Last edited by LOU D; 05-06-2012 at 01:08 AM.
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  #48  
Old 05-06-2012, 07:27 AM
bunkerarms bunkerarms is offline
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I have never seen a gun get worn out from cleaning it. I would say if guns got worn out from cleaning... our military would be in big trouble. However, I have seen oils break down and turn black from galvanic reaction from dissimilar metals in the firearm just sitting there. I have also seen guns in peoples humidity controlled safes get some light surface rust because the owners thought they could leave them in there for years without messing with them. I am in Florida though so this may happen less in say Arizona.
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  #49  
Old 05-06-2012, 08:35 AM
jtq jtq is offline
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I'm not anti-cleaning, but I am anti-degreasing. I clean my pistols after every shooting session, and I add lube often, but unless you are trying to get something new to stick to your pistol, like a new finish or sight paint, why take off all the lube?

I'm also sort of anti-detail strip, at least with the regularity some proclaim. How often do folks detail strip their Sig P-Series, Ruger P-Series, S&W 3rd Gen autos, CZ75, etc. They all have great reliability reputations and I'd guess they are practically never detail stripped. Somewhere I saw a thread asking "do we detail strip the 1911 because we need to or because we can".
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  #50  
Old 05-06-2012, 09:20 AM
TRSOtto TRSOtto is offline
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Originally Posted by Itshak View Post
That is what I said, lack of lube, but I can't see anybody adding lube on a dirty pistol it will make it like mud.
If lubing a dirtly pistol turns the grit to mud....then you don't have enough lube on your pistol. A really wet dirty pistol is just that. Wet and dirty. Lube dripping off the gun carries crud with it. But if the crud and lube just turns to paste...your gun isn't wet enough.
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