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  #51  
Old 04-28-2012, 02:05 PM
sousana sousana is offline
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I seem to remember words oh so many years ago by my Marine DI hand to hand instructor. Son " a fair fight could get you killed." In a life or death struggle, use ANY means to win, even should that mean killing from behind by twisting their neck and slicing.
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  #52  
Old 04-28-2012, 05:18 PM
Ankeny Ankeny is offline
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Quote:
If someone bum rushes you and is beating the crap out of you then you all are going to be on point pull out a gun and kill someone.
Never said that.
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  #53  
Old 04-28-2012, 05:32 PM
Dwight55 Dwight55 is offline
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If someone bum rushes you and is beating the crap out of you then you all are going to be on point pull out a gun and kill someone.

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Originally Posted by Ankeny View Post
Never said that.
I will. Fists are as deadly a weapon as any firearm ever thought of being. Their range is just a bit more limited.

If some "bum" wants a piece of me, . . . he can have it, . . . 240 grain, JHP, coming to him at 800+ feet per second.

May God bless,
Dwight
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  #54  
Old 04-28-2012, 05:59 PM
JT1911 JT1911 is offline
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The three rules to fighting-
1) Do not start until, you have already won.
2) If confronted-choose every other option first.
3) If forced- use as much force as you have available, for as long as you are able, until the threat is no more.
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  #55  
Old 04-28-2012, 10:24 PM
USMM guy USMM guy is online now
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The three rules of fighting are a no brainer to me.

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Originally Posted by JT1911 View Post
The three rules to fighting-
1) Do not start until, you have already won.
2) If confronted-choose every other option first.
3) If forced- use as much force as you have available, for as long as you are able, until the threat is no more.
Do you want to walk away from the fight? Or do you want to make sure that the other guy or guys do? The answer is clear as far as I can see.
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  #56  
Old 04-28-2012, 10:48 PM
Ringolevio Ringolevio is offline
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HungrySeagull wrote:
Quote:
There are a percentage of People who never was subjected to a fight or a violence during school years and even later. Those are the lucky ones.
Are they so "lucky"? They grow up out-of-touch with reality. When those people become our "leaders" (as they have now), we become the unlucky ones.

When I was a kid we settled a lot of beefs with our fists. If a kid was getting "bullied", he didn't run to the "authorities" and file charges. Instead, his father showed him a couple of moves, and he gave the bully a bloody nose, or at least showed the bully that he'd fight back.

But we've become a nation (or even a world) of "men" who have never kicked anybody's butt and, worse, have never had their own butt kicked! That's the trouble with our so-called "leaders". It's one big reason why I distrust any politician who hasn't served in the military. Guys who really know how to fight are not the ones who go looking for a fight.

Anyway, a lot of this discussion is influenced by the "spin" being put on the Martin/Zimmerman case.

Those who are over-simplifying that case are saying "You don't pull a gun and shoot someone just because he's whupping your butt in a fistfight".

But what they conveniently ignore is that, as has been mentioned here, having your head slammed against the pavement makes it something far different than a mere "fistfight".
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  #57  
Old 04-28-2012, 11:04 PM
James&thegiant1911 James&thegiant1911 is offline
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I do not care what Zimmerman did or did not do to warrant whatever led to that altercation. He did his thing, only he and he alone knows if it was the right thing?

Personally, I would have put a knot on that kids head and detained him until the Police came but then again I am not some rent a cop wanna be out to prove something so the local departments will speed up my application process. I have had my nose broken before so severe it was on the other side of my face, I have beat people up and have been beaten. I know what it takes to fight hand to hand and there is a difference between that and escalation to a deadly situation. Granted the line is less than what it use to be but I have also heard of people being able to kill someone with a punch to the face and going cold, hitting their head on the way down. Again, each situation is different, people, circumstances they all play a part. Regardless of that though it takes a significant amount of justification to warrant the use of deadly force. All I am saying, rather than saying you should shoot first if someone is attacking you with your fists.

If any of you all have CCWs which I think you do then the first thing the instructor tells you is to not be in it if you are not in it to begin with. Meaning do not go looking for trouble because it will find you.
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  #58  
Old 04-29-2012, 03:38 AM
Dragoniel Dragoniel is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by James&thegiant1911 View Post
If you use excessive force in a fight where fists are being used then expected to be charged with Manslaughter and possibly murder.
I saw it demonstrated more than once what happens when a person who knows basics of a martial art attacks a person who knows nothing. It's not pretty, and I'm not talking about movies. I'm sure I don't need to elaborate.

My instructor was very clear - if someone approaches you in threatening manner, shoot before he is in arms length. If that someone has a sharp object, shoot before he is in throwing range.

My idea of a fair fight is to not cheat on video games. However, real life is not a video game and in real life I do not fight, I avoid the fight. If there is absolutely no way to avoid the fight without shooting, so be it. I'll shoot before the fight starts.

Whether I will be charged afterwards is irrelevant. What relevant is to avoid being maimed or killed to see the other day.
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Last edited by Dragoniel; 04-29-2012 at 03:46 AM.
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  #59  
Old 04-29-2012, 07:39 AM
WalterGC WalterGC is offline
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Self-defense laws have been improved and tuned by many states over the past few years, with most of those states' being in the Old South. It's easy, in hindsight, for some internet commando to suggest that being overpowered by a stronger, taller, younger, more aggressive 17-yr-old who's beating your head against concrete while threatening your life would only merit a "fair" fight, such as "detaining" the aggressor until the police arrive. That's simple-minded and naive.
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  #60  
Old 04-29-2012, 07:56 AM
Ringolevio Ringolevio is offline
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I am impressed!

James&thegiant1911 wrote:
Quote:
I do not care what Zimmerman did or did not do to warrant whatever led to that altercation. He did his thing, only he and he alone knows if it was the right thing?

Personally, I would have put a knot on that kids head and detained him until the Police came but then again I am not some rent a cop wanna be out to prove something so the local departments will speed up my application process.
You go from "Only Zimmerman knows..." to knowing exactly what was in his mind and what his subconscious motivations were!

So, to put it in "pop culture" terms, you're like a cross between the human dreadnaught on "Person of Interest" and the psychologist/mind-reader on "The Mentalist"!

Wow.
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  #61  
Old 04-29-2012, 09:18 AM
Riverpigusmc Riverpigusmc is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by James&thegiant1911 View Post
You guys on this thread here kill me you really do. If someone bum rushes you and is beating the crap out of you then you all are going to be on point pull out a gun and kill someone. You all do realize that 80 percent of all shots in the heat of the battle miss there intended targets. That includes police officers who train with their weapons every day.

Unless someone trained in combat or a professional athlete attacks you then that would be assault with a deadly weapon warranting the use of deadly force. That is about the only scenario in which you could legally bring deadly force into the equation. Again if it is an equal fight and you are punching/ fighting with another person and then you up the situation by pulling a gun on an unarmed individual then expect to be in court on the stand telling a jury that you felt in fear of your life.
Almost no civilian law enforcement agencies train and shoot on a daily basis..where did you get that? Unless they go to the range on their own dime, they are lucky if they qualify more than once a year. And disparity of force comes into play in a lot of self defense cases involving an attacker who is using his fists. Thats where the "equal fight" part ends. Im 55, and not in a mood to go hand to hand with some little asshat thug..especially one who may or may not have a weapon in his waistband. There is a difference between being attacked and letting yourself allow an argument to escalate to a physical fight. If I'm stupid enough to do the latter, shame on me. If it's the former, well, shame on them. All state laws are different..perhaps your view applies to your state. Thank the Lord it doesn't always apply in mine.
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  #62  
Old 04-29-2012, 09:58 AM
James&thegiant1911 James&thegiant1911 is offline
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So, what it seems to me you all are saying is that if you smart off to some one, the altercation turns physical in some sort of way? You were equally as responsible for being in the situation as the other individual and that person was committing no crime. He shoves you, you shove back it escalates and then he punches one of you all in the face. While he punched you in your face you fall to the ground pull your weapon and shoot him.

That is a lot like it seems to me to what you all are saying? Just want to make sure.
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  #63  
Old 04-29-2012, 11:21 AM
master gunner master gunner is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dwight55 View Post
If someone bum rushes you and is beating the crap out of you then you all are going to be on point pull out a gun and kill someone.



I will. Fists are as deadly a weapon as any firearm ever thought of being. Their range is just a bit more limited.

If some "bum" wants a piece of me, . . . he can have it, . . . 240 grain, JHP, coming to him at 800+ feet per second.

May God bless,
Dwight
Preach on, Sir, preach on.

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  #64  
Old 04-29-2012, 05:33 PM
1911FiX 1911FiX is offline
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Ok so for context, the way this came up was; one of the guys shows up with a broken hand from skiing. Anyway, in conversation, they also ask me how I got the scar on my hand / arm. And I tell them I got stabbed a long time ago.

Then I recounted the event when one day, as I was walking along, some guy comes up behind me and hits me in the head from behind in an attempted mugging. I managed to fight him off but right after I do so, 4 more of his buddies show up and I managed to get away but not before one of them stabbed me.

In retrospect, I tell them that i should have at least drawn, if not shot the very first guy as I was actually armed that day. Then, one of the women in the group said that I did the right thing by not drawing. To which I retorted that if things had gone slightly differently, I might have been dead. At which point the whole group seemed to take the position that it wouldn't have been "fair" or "right" to have shot any of them. Or that I should have at least only "shot" to wound. I then gave up discussing.
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  #65  
Old 04-29-2012, 05:40 PM
AWMP AWMP is offline
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I have crimson trace grips on my CCW pistols, I was told that it seemed like an unfair advantage. There was a very long reply I gave to a relative I did not like much anyway.
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  #66  
Old 04-29-2012, 05:46 PM
James&thegiant1911 James&thegiant1911 is offline
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Since, no one answered the question and everyone danced around it. this will be my last post in this failure thread.

There are situations which exist that allow you to use your weapon as defense when being attacked by people who are certainly the aggressor and have a weapon. Additionally given the circumstances of the attack and if that person is a trained boxer, professional athlete, and/ or wrestler then you can use deadly force if that is considered as someone mentioned earlier a disproportional forceful situation.

However, as has been seen with most cases where an unarmed encounter occurred and the aggressor was not armed, the person that ended up killing the aggressor will be prosecuted and charged similar to George Zimmerman. It is easy to say on the stand that my life was endanger and blah blah blah but when the evidence does not support the accusations then expect a possible long stay in Jail not to mention even if you are found not guilty, your life will never be the same and the charges themselves will still follow you around. I see a lot of you all talk about protecting your life, family friends et al. and that is great but also realize a CCW does not give you a license to kill. All I was saying........ carry on......
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  #67  
Old 04-29-2012, 05:57 PM
shooterinpa shooterinpa is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by James&thegiant1911 View Post
If you use excessive force in a fight where fists are being used then expected to be charged with Manslaughter and possibly murder.
How about if it is 10 on 1?
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  #68  
Old 04-29-2012, 06:01 PM
shooterinpa shooterinpa is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by James&thegiant1911 View Post
You guys on this thread here kill me you really do. If someone bum rushes you and is beating the crap out of you then you all are going to be on point pull out a gun and kill someone. You all do realize that 80 percent of all shots in the heat of the battle miss there intended targets. That includes police officers who train with their weapons every day.

Unless someone trained in combat or a professional athlete attacks you then that would be assault with a deadly weapon warranting the use of deadly force. That is about the only scenario in which you could legally bring deadly force into the equation. Again if it is an equal fight and you are punching/ fighting with another person and then you up the situation by pulling a gun on an unarmed individual then expect to be in court on the stand telling a jury that you felt in fear of your life.
I will have to remember to ask the next guy who attacks me if he is a professional athlete. If not according to you I must simply take it. Moronic does not begin to describe that.
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  #69  
Old 04-29-2012, 09:21 PM
Ringolevio Ringolevio is offline
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'Just so you know...

The screen name of "James&thegiant1911" alludes to "James and the Giant Peach", a 1961 children's
novel by Roald Dahl that bears even less relation to any kind of reality than does "Alice in Wonderland".
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  #70  
Old 04-29-2012, 09:28 PM
Red Dirt Dave Red Dirt Dave is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by James&thegiant1911 View Post
So, what it seems to me you all are saying is that if you smart off to some one, the altercation turns physical in some sort of way? You were equally as responsible for being in the situation as the other individual and that person was committing no crime. He shoves you, you shove back it escalates and then he punches one of you all in the face. While he punched you in your face you fall to the ground pull your weapon and shoot him.

That is a lot like it seems to me to what you all are saying? Just want to make sure.
Do you do a lot of this type of questionable stuff when you are carrying?
If so, I am surprised that you aren't in the hospital or in jail.

When I carry, I am completely unoffendable - and do nothing to offend.
If someone attacks me, I know it is their problem - not mine
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  #71  
Old 04-29-2012, 09:42 PM
USMM guy USMM guy is online now
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Very well said.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Dirt Dave View Post
Do you do a lot of this type of questionable stuff when you are carrying?
If so, I am surprised that you aren't in the hospital or in jail.

When I carry, I am completely unoffendable - and do nothing to offend.
If someone attacks me, I know it is their problem - not mine
This is kind of the way that I look at it. You can say and do anything that you want to. Until you cross a line.
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  #72  
Old 04-29-2012, 10:18 PM
WalterGC WalterGC is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by James&thegiant1911 View Post
So, what it seems to me you all are saying is that if you smart off to some one, the altercation turns physical in some sort of way? You were equally as responsible for being in the situation as the other individual and that person was committing no crime. He shoves you, you shove back it escalates and then he punches one of you all in the face. While he punched you in your face you fall to the ground pull your weapon and shoot him.

That is a lot like it seems to me to what you all are saying? Just want to make sure.
I don't see that the above jibberish is germane to this thread or anything that's been said in the thread. Certainly doesn't remotely relate to the Zimmerman case.
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  #73  
Old 04-29-2012, 10:27 PM
JT1911 JT1911 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by USMM guy View Post
Do you want to walk away from the fight? Or do you want to make sure that the other guy or guys do? The answer is clear as far as I can see.
Unfortunately, I have seen people argue this point on campus. There are a significant portion of the populace who seem to believe that if you have to resort to "unfair" measures to defend yourself, then you should just lie down and die.

Personally- I choose life, and I will let the good Lord in His wisdom worry about the distribution of mercy.
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  #74  
Old 04-30-2012, 04:07 AM
BravoRomeo BravoRomeo is offline
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A quote from a Navy SEAL in his biography:

"The first fight you fight fair is the first fight that you could lose."

I want to say the book is either:

SEAL TEAM SIX, Memoirs of an Elite Navy SEAL Sniper

or

HUNTERS, U.S. Snipers in the War on Terror
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  #75  
Old 04-30-2012, 07:17 AM
Grunt33 Grunt33 is offline
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Interesting thread, if nothing else. May as well fan the flames.

First and foremost, I'm not sure how it works in 47 states, but I can vouch for Georgia, Arizona, and Pennsylvania. You defend yourself. Period. From any aggression. As long as you keep your mouth shut and aren't the aggressor, the law doesn't have much to say other than "we'll take it from here".

Regarding police officers: Your average shooter/marksman shoots weekly. Your average lawman shoots twice a year. A large percentage of police are NOT gun people. They qualify, and that's about it.

As far as being considered a "deadly weapon".... that's a television fantasy. I'm a veteran, came home in 2005. Sure, 7 years has put some civilian plush around the middle, and what was once "chiseled from stone" is more "molded from clay" these days, but I'm still in better shape and quite a bit stronger than your average office rat (I work in a brick plant, it keeps me pretty fit). A few years ago, I had a run-in with a self-proclaimed black belt (others say he really is, I don't know) that went a bit sideways. After we rearranged some furniture, naturally the law had to come see what the hub-bub was about. There I stand, a recent return from the infantry, with a bloodied blackbelt sitting nearby, and neither of us were classified as "deadly". Foolish, yes, a bit angry, sure, but I wasn't classified as a WMD. Had I been, I would have framed that in a heartbeat and mailed copies to everyone I know.

As far as "manning up" and "fighting fair".... that's just silly. Once Mr.Macho claimed he was a blackbelt, and I realized things had progressed past talking regardless of my intentions, I was quick to make every attempt to get the upper hand. And yes, by most tough-guy's distorted sense of "fair" and "manning up", I played dirty. Had he gotten the upper hand, I would have used any means at my disposal to prevent bodily harm to myself. Gun, chair, beer bottle, abrams tank.... you name it.

There is only one rule in a fight:
"I'm going home"

There is only one goal in a fight:
"I'm going home"

And there is only one stipulation to those:
"By any means necessary."

"If you've found yourself in a fair fight, you've done something wrong"
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