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  #26  
Old 04-29-2012, 07:39 AM
simonsay simonsay is offline
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How to increase speed...

Compete. Shoot USPSA or IDPA. It will expose your weaknesses and improve you're skills, IF... You will approach it with an open mind and put some effort into it.
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  #27  
Old 04-29-2012, 10:03 AM
Ankeny Ankeny is offline
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Quote:
Aiming doesn't mean that you have to see a front and rear sight in relation to each other.
True enough. Not wanting to high jack or drift the thread, but there is a school of thought (in competition circles) that takes the position that being aware of the relationship of the sights to one another (whether they be in alignment or not) takes no longer than shooting from with a pure target focus. Just saying...

Quote:
If you needed to consciously focus on each individual step of that process, most of us wouldn't be nearly as fast as we are.
I agree, to a point. But there are times when one is faster at performing tasks by shifting their attention from one element to the other as the task is initiated. Take the following drill. Put an IPSC target at 5-7 yards. Starting at surrender position. At the buzzer, draw, fire one round, reload, fire a second round. The goal is two "C" hits or better in under two seconds. Pretty tough to do on autopilot.
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  #28  
Old 04-29-2012, 12:31 PM
richpetrone richpetrone is offline
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Sight alignment

Quote:
Not wanting to high jack or drift the thread, but there is a school of thought (in competition circles) that takes the position that being aware of the relationship of the sights to one another (whether they be in alignment or not) takes no longer than shooting from with a pure target focus. Just saying...
This is purely dependent on the distance and the size of the target. I have shot in USPSA where the first target was about 4-5 ft. away, so I did a "speed rock" drill, where I never brought the gun up to eye level and fired two quick controlled shots from the hip (arm retention method). I don't remember the exact time, but it was extremely fast....I am guessing the first shot was about a .35 draw and I got two "A" hits. There have been some excellent and accurate hip shooters over the years, and the late Bill Jordan was one of the greats.

Quote:
Put an IPSC target at 5-7 yards. Starting at surrender position. At the buzzer, draw, fire one round, reload, fire a second round. The goal is two "C" hits or better in under two seconds. Pretty tough to do on autopilot.
This may be good for practicing the draw and reload, but accepting two "C" hits for USPSA may be fine, but accepting a "C" hit in any drill might get you killed in a real self defense situation....COM hits are better!
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  #29  
Old 04-29-2012, 12:36 PM
HungrySeagull HungrySeagull is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by richpetrone View Post
This is purely dependent on the distance and the size of the target. I have shot in USPSA where the first target was about 4-5 ft. away, so I did a "speed rock" drill, where I never brought the gun up to eye level and fired two quick controlled shots from the hip (arm retention method). I don't remember the exact time, but it was extremely fast....I am guessing the first shot was about a .35 draw and I got two "A" hits. There have been some excellent and accurate hip shooters over the years, and the late Bill Jordan was one of the greats.



This may be good for practicing the draw and reload, but accepting two "C" hits for USPSA may be fine, but accepting a "C" hit in any drill might get you killed in a real self defense situation....COM hits are better!
May I interject a little bit regarding the sights.

Being "Aware" of the sights?

Let me ask you one question... "Would you rather focus on the bad guys and scan area for threats or stay fixed on your sights?"
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  #30  
Old 04-29-2012, 02:04 PM
Ankeny Ankeny is offline
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Quote:
This is purely dependent on the distance and the size of the target.
Sure if there is only one target. Speaking strictly from a competition perspective, when there are multiple targets available a shooter is usually better off to get behind the gun well enough to make and call the shot on the first target, then immediately get on with the rest of the shooting. A good example is a classifier like the Mini-Mart. Countless shooters could grip it and rip it from under the counter and point shoot the first target in a flash, but there is a reason no serious competition shooters do that.

Quote:
This may be good for practicing the draw and reload, but accepting two "C" hits for USPSA may be fine, but accepting a "C" hit in any drill might get you killed in a real self defense situation....COM hits are better!
Yup, yup. Just saying the more complex the task at hand, the more one needs to shift their focus and awareness.

Quote:
Being "Aware" of the sights?

Let me ask you one question... "Would you rather focus on the bad guys and scan area for threats or stay fixed on your sights?"
Are you asking me? The problem I have here is I am addressing some of the references that were made to the square range USPSA shooters, but this is a Tactics and Personal Defense thread. Mixing the two seldom seems to work out very well. I am not speaking of bad guys other than those made of cardboard. FWIW, a person can be absolutely "aware" of the relationship of the sights to a target face without being "fixed" on the sights.
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  #31  
Old 04-29-2012, 06:52 PM
Rastoff Rastoff is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LW McVay View Post
Words have meaning and convey meaning. When you use the wrong words, especially to a new shooter, you do a disservice. Best to use proper terminology, deliver the info as accurately as possible to get the meaning conveyed in the most efficient manner. Don't waste the student's time on cliched crap.
You are absolutely correct, but I don't think the term is cliched crap in this case. "Muscle Memory" is so widely used that when a student hears it, there is no ambiguity as to what is meant. I've been teaching martial arts for many years and never had a student become confused when I used that term. Wrong though it may be from a clinical stand point, it's easy, common and is not ambiguous. Just like saying "ATM machine", there's little value in arguing that it's wrong.

Quote:
Originally Posted by simonsay View Post
Compete. Shoot USPSA or IDPA. It will expose your weaknesses and improve you're skills, IF... You will approach it with an open mind and put some effort into it.
I would love to do this, but don't know of any competitions like this in my area. Is there a link to competitions? Can anyone sign up?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ankeny View Post
...but this is a Tactics and Personal Defense thread.
This is indeed. At this stage of my own proficiency, I don't think I would engage multiple targets unless backed into a corner. Two, yes, but more than that and it becomes a gun battle and I don't want to go there. Hopefully, I'm smart enough to avoid such a compromising situation.
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  #32  
Old 04-29-2012, 07:37 PM
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LW McVay LW McVay is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rastoff View Post
You are absolutely correct, but I don't think the term is cliched crap in this case. "Muscle Memory" is so widely used that when a student hears it, there is no ambiguity as to what is meant. I've been teaching martial arts for many years and never had a student become confused when I used that term. Wrong though it may be from a clinical stand point, it's easy, common and is not ambiguous. Just like saying "ATM machine", there's little value in arguing that it's wrong.
I owe it to a student to give them the truth - not pablum. If you think about it, I'm betting you will feel the same. But if not, drive on with your method.
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  #33  
Old 04-29-2012, 08:31 PM
Bigmant Bigmant is offline
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Practice your draw and first two shots going slow and progressively get faster and faster. The key to quickness is getting the basics and mechanics down pat at a slow speed that way at faster speeds it will be second nature. Hope this helps and good luck!
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  #34  
Old 04-29-2012, 09:14 PM
simonsay simonsay is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rastoff View Post
I would love to do this, but don't know of any competitions like this in my area. Is there a link to competitions? Can anyone sign up?

http://www.USPSA.org/locate-uspsa-clubs.php
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  #35  
Old 04-30-2012, 12:06 AM
Rastoff Rastoff is offline
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Thanks for that link. There some closer than I thought. Still a little drive, but probably worth it.
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  #36  
Old 04-30-2012, 01:23 AM
TN.Frank TN.Frank is offline
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Think this might be germain to the conversation.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muscle_memory

Whenever you do something over and over you soon can do it without thinking. I can play stuff on the guitar and bass without actually thinking about moving my fingers, they just go to the frets that they need to be at and the song comes out. Same with drawing and shooting a firearm. Practice enough and you'll soon be doing it without even thinking about it.
Just start slowly so you'll set up the proper pathways in the brain and the speed will come. Slow is smooth and smooth is fast.
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  #37  
Old 04-30-2012, 07:42 AM
richpetrone richpetrone is offline
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Sights

Quote:
Speaking strictly from a competition perspective, when there are multiple targets available a shooter is usually better off to get behind the gun well enough to make and call the shot on the first target, then immediately get on with the rest of the shooting. A good example is a classifier like the Mini-Mart. Countless shooters could grip it and rip it from under the counter and point shoot the first target in a flash, but there is a reason no serious competition shooters do that.
I was a very serious competitive USPSA shooter, and the scenario I described where I shot two fast shots from the hip was a "run and gun" stage where you had to hit the first target, and then move to another target array, and I shot the next array on the move...

The rule of thumb in USPSA is get to the shooting as fast as possible! If the first target is less than 6 ft. away, you don't have to use the sights, and an arm retentioin technique will save time! At the time, I saved about one second on that run compared to some Master class shooters that were darn good! I probably saved a half second on the speed rock draw, and maybe another half second on good transitions. My point is...the amount of sight alignment needed is purely dependent on the size and the distance of the target. Sometimes a hip shooting style can be very fast and accurate for close targets, whether in competition or real self defense. Practicing arm retention shooting is a valid technique, and the fastest way to engage a close in target. The experienced shooter knows just how much sight alignment will be needed for the given target presentation, based on the size and distance of the target! Every scenario in USPSA may be different, but knowing how to shave a half second here and there definitely adds up!
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  #38  
Old 04-30-2012, 09:27 AM
Ankeny Ankeny is offline
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Quote:
My point is...the amount of sight alignment needed is purely dependent on the size and the distance of the target.
I agree.

My point is, on an IPSC/USPSA stage the time to the first shot isn't the most important factor. The time to a quality platform that will allow one to shoot at their peak performance level is much more important. But that is cannon fodder for the competition thread.
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  #39  
Old 04-30-2012, 10:21 AM
richpetrone richpetrone is offline
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USPSA and time to the first shot

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My point is, on an IPSC/USPSA stage the time to the first shot isn't the most important factor
We can agree on this point....however, if you have a situation where you have one close target, you may be able to shave 1/2 second on your first shot by knowing how to do a "speed rock drill." Shooters at the Master level are pretty good at stage planning, getting quickly in and out of shooting positions, fast reloads and knowing the optimal time to reload for the stage, fast transitions, etc. If the competition takes the time to move the gun up to near eye level, their first shot will be much slower. A speed rock drill doesn't need visual sight alignment at 5 ft., but you need good visual awareness, and good peripheral vision to index the gun, and good technique to keep the gun level near your hip while applying proper trigger control. The speed rock arm retention technique is a valid way to fire fast shots at very close distances to get COM hits. I would embrace the chance to shave 1/2 second off any course of fire in USPSA, at any skill level. Last week at a local IDPA match, I came in second for High Overall Honors, and a SSP Master Class shooter edged me out by .76 of a second....

Last edited by richpetrone; 04-30-2012 at 10:26 AM.
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  #40  
Old 05-03-2012, 11:56 PM
sergeant69 sergeant69 is offline
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i just reviewed a book i got from sinclair that i wasn't impressed with, COMBAT FOCUS SHOOTING. lots of theorys but few examples and how-to's. now, thats just MY impression. it could be the best shooting book ever written and i'm a idiot. point is, can anyone reccommend a book or two that they actually learned from? the stuff we were taught years ago at various LEO academys was obviously just thrown together by an "instructor". now that i'm fixing to retire and will have some time, i'd like to learn to do it right. kind of a speed shooting/defensive shooting for dummies is what i'm looking for. thanks
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  #41  
Old 05-11-2012, 07:51 AM
richpetrone richpetrone is offline
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Book to help improve speed

My recommendation is "Practical Shooting, Beyond Fundamentals" by Brian Enos. I have read it many times, and finally got to the point that I knew what the author meant about "driving the gun" when I was "running and gunning" in USPSA style shooting.

Even if you don't shoot USPSA, this book explaians in good detail, how to shoot faster with speed and accuracy....

You can usually find a used copy at an on-line used book store.
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  #42  
Old 05-11-2012, 02:02 PM
sergeant69 sergeant69 is offline
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actually, i have that book and love it. gotta read it more than once to "get it" though. but yea, its a hellofa book.
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  #43  
Old 05-23-2012, 06:48 PM
SchultzLD SchultzLD is offline
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Speed comes with proficiency.
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  #44  
Old 05-23-2012, 07:30 PM
john1badass45 john1badass45 is offline
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Totally agree with rich,got the book a few weeks ago and just grasping the idea of focus and relaxing so as to go thru the movements smoothly will make them fast.Learn something new with every chapter I read and take those tips to the range when practicing stages.
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