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  #51  
Old 02-18-2012, 08:07 PM
Lt.Smoke Lt.Smoke is offline
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Great story glad the guy was alright.... I guess this time the punks got more than they bargained for
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  #52  
Old 03-01-2012, 11:10 AM
475/480 475/480 is offline
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In Texas, he's looking at a $20-$30k in legal fees, just to get "no-billed" (found faultless) by a grand jury. Even if he's no-billed, he still has to worry about civil recovery by the boys/families for damages, both actual and punitive. Even if the plaintiffs lose in civil court, our 65-year-old defender still has to have attorneys....and that's a conservative estimate of $50k. All that just to defend himself. Lordy, what has happened to the USA!
chas[/QUOTE]

This is not correct .You can not be (sued) in a self defense sitiuation.

Sean
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  #53  
Old 03-01-2012, 12:09 PM
zWarlord zWarlord is offline
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One of the reasons i love Florida, if its a clean shoot, no civil suit is possible.
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  #54  
Old 03-01-2012, 05:07 PM
Punisher102 Punisher102 is offline
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And why should there be?

If a bad guy breaks into your house and cuts himself, he can sue the home owner,,, even IF he is the one committing the crime.

When are the law makers, lawyers and Judges gonna open their eyes and see that's it just wrong to award these scumbags for damages when they are the one breaking the law.

As soon as the bad guy makes the commitment to break the law (felony), they should by default loose any and all rights. And this includes in the jail system. Its called prison for a reason,,,, its not a country club.
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  #55  
Old 03-16-2012, 08:01 AM
darthkevin darthkevin is offline
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Good for him! I once was taking my dog out to use her facilities when I cam upon 3 teenage boys. I was in uniform (ACUs) had my mag light and my dog that was it. When I came to the boys, I saw they were completing a drug deal. I asked what they were doing and they proceeded to tell me it was non of my business. I told them to take that crap elsewhere and they started to close in on me. I think that the oldest one was about 16 or 17 years old. I told them that they didn't want to mess with me because my dog was a puitbull and she (sensing the situation) was ready to bolt at them. They decided that was too much for them and they left. If they would have attacked me and I would have had my trusty 1911 (I was in uniform so I didn't) I would have shot them as well. I would have been torn up about shooting minors, but when it is your safety or their life you gotta pick yourself.
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  #56  
Old 03-16-2012, 08:23 AM
internetguy internetguy is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by master gunner View Post
Last time I looked stupid wasn't on the ADA list.

Gunner- and good thing too- if it was, there'd be zero parking spots for the average person at any store...
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  #57  
Old 03-16-2012, 08:40 AM
jackl4 jackl4 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Punisher102 View Post

When are the law makers, lawyers and Judges gonna open their eyes and see that's it just wrong to award these scumbags for damages when they are the one breaking the law.
Unfortunately, they will not. This is my opinion. I believe the lawyers have intentionally made the laws so everything gets drawn out as long as possible so they can maximize their profits.

The lawyers in this country have systematically created laws and a judicial system that not only self-perpetuates the lawyer industry, but also allows the system to be manipulated as they see fit. They have deliberately ruined this country's moral sense and thrown out all common sense so they can get crazy rich on us people who cannot understand the judicial system on our own.

I'm a capitalist and strongly believe in free enterprise. But the business of law in this country, in my opinion, is the underlying problem that this country suffers. As long as lawyers are making the laws, we are doomed and there will be no common sense applied.

I'll continue with my rant. If we want anything to change in America, we need to get rid of all the corrupt lawyers in Washington and vote in not the "elite" but the common man to do uncommon works. Any presidential candidate, regardless of political orientation, that makes any promises of change is just hot air unless he has a plan to rid Washington of the status quo (corrupt politicians making the laws that work to their own benefit).

All this talk about gun control, criminal punishment, immigration law, abortion rights, constitutional rights, etc. are all the things those lawyers want us to keep busy with. It distracts us from the real truth that they are further perverting the system of law to their own benefit -and making it nearly impossible for any non-lawyer to participate in the discussion.

Sorry for the rant. It's just I am frustrated to see how much of this **** we American's will take from our own government and not awaken to the reality of "being controlled".
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  #58  
Old 03-16-2012, 11:47 AM
Johnny Rocco Johnny Rocco is offline
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Having worked a career with violent felons and criminals of all ilk, I can tell you that the one thing that they fear, is a potential "victim" who chooses not to be, backs it up, and turns the table on them.
Self defense... Forever has it been, the ultimate deterrent.
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  #59  
Old 03-18-2012, 04:32 PM
Mike'sgooddeal Mike'sgooddeal is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UNKNOWN
In Texas, he's looking at a $20-$30k in legal fees, just to get "no-billed" (found faultless) by a grand jury. Even if he's no-billed, he still has to worry about civil recovery by the boys/families for damages, both actual and punitive. Even if the plaintiffs lose in civil court, our 65-year-old defender still has to have attorneys....and that's a conservative estimate of $50k. All that just to defend himself. Lordy, what has happened to the USA!
chas
Quote:
Originally Posted by 475/480 View Post
This is not correct .You can not be (sued) in a self defense sitiuation.

Sean

Grand Juries tend to be for criminal legal actions, not civil ones. I suspect many prosecutors or State Attorney General's offices take cases that are "iffy" or politically charged in front of the grand jury. They know criminal charges may not be authorized, but they don't want to personally stand on either side of the shooting because of political reasons. They know that with the evidence in front of them they can't get a "beyond a reasonable doubt" conviction, but the grand jury is a great tool for fishing for more evidence.

If I got brought into a grand jury as a possible defendant, I would certainly have an attorney and win or loose, I'd be responsible to pay my attorney.

Of course it varies from state to state.


As pointed out by Plasticman, anyone can be sued for anything. Even though I might prevail at a very early stage of the game, I will still incurr legal fees because my house, my personal retirement accounts, my cars, my future paychecks and my kids' college funds are all on the line. I'm certainly not going to walk into court without an attorney and say "your honor, you need to dismiss this because this law over here says so." Anyone who believes the legal system is well, black and white, is in for a rude surprise.


Many people have talked about "reforming" our legal system as it pertains to civil liablity. Some have brought up a "looser pays" proposition, the idea being the looser of the lawsuit pays the other party's attorney fees. Supporters say this will keep people from becoming victims in cases like this shooting we are talking about. The problem I see is that when I try to sue a large company over product liability, etc., I would be gambling that multi-million dollar win (unlikely as there are rarely clear cut big $$$ winners) against a potential multi-million dollar loss (large companies pay their attornies LOTS of money). You would see these big companies dump thousands of hours into extending and delaying the process in an effort to make the little guy give up. Anyone ever watch "Erin Brokavich"?

In a looser pays scenario, I think you would actually see a chilling effect of people unwilling to bring forward otherwise legitimate cases. Even a small dispute over say $1,000 with a landlord could end up costing someone $5-10,000. Looser pays is another way of saying "bully wins".
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  #60  
Old 03-18-2012, 04:55 PM
tuccipa tuccipa is offline
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As far a a Grand Jury, you do not have legal representation. They are proceeding for a DA to see if enough evidence is present to warrant criminal charges. Your lawyer is not present. It is you, the DA and the jury members. Any defendant represented by an attorney most likely will not testify in front of a Grand Jury, just take the fifth. All statements will already be read in. Witnesses are usually the ones answering questions in front of the jury. Grand Jury's are there to indite people only.

At least that they way it worked for me in NY State years ago as a potential witness.
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  #61  
Old 03-18-2012, 10:18 PM
Mike'sgooddeal Mike'sgooddeal is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tuccipa View Post
As far a a Grand Jury, you do not have legal representation. They are proceeding for a DA to see if enough evidence is present to warrant criminal charges. Your lawyer is not present. It is you, the DA and the jury members. Any defendant represented by an attorney most likely will not testify in front of a Grand Jury, just take the fifth. All statements will already be read in. Witnesses are usually the ones answering questions in front of the jury. Grand Jury's are there to indite people only.

At least that they way it worked for me in NY State years ago as a potential witness.

A little Wiki research does show you to be correct about not having your attorney in the room. I found it interesting that the 4th ammendment (exclusionary rule) also does not apply (as of 1974 USC decision), so what would otherwise be improper evidence can be given to the grand jury to decide it's value. I guess the only consolation is that IF you get indicted, you will get to go to a real court to confront witnesses and refute the evidence against you.

To get back to the original topic, I'm a cyclist and I certainly sympathize with the vicitm in this case. I can't think of a time when I'm more physically vulnerable than when I'm dehydrated, out of breath, knocked to the ground at 18mph wearing next to nothing. I would submit the mere knocking someone off a bike at anything much above a walking pace could subject the rider to risk of death/great bodily harm or serious injury.
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  #62  
Old 03-19-2012, 08:54 AM
master gunner master gunner is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike'sgooddeal View Post
A little Wiki research does show you to be correct about not having your attorney in the room. I found it interesting that the 4th ammendment (exclusionary rule) also does not apply (as of 1974 USC decision), so what would otherwise be improper evidence can be given to the grand jury to decide it's value. I guess the only consolation is that IF you get indicted, you will get to go to a real court to confront witnesses and refute the evidence against you.

Does that mean you can also present "improper evidence"?

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  #63  
Old 03-19-2012, 04:14 PM
Mike'sgooddeal Mike'sgooddeal is online now
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Originally Posted by master gunner View Post
Does that mean you can also present "improper evidence"?

Here's an excerpt from an american bar association Q&A page about grand juries:



Can a grand jury target offer evidence of his or her own?
  • For the most part, the subject of a grand jury investigation has no right to testify unless subpoenaed, nor any right to compel the grand jury to hear certain witnesses or evidence. Often, however, if a target requests an opportunity to testify, he or she will be permitted by the prosecutor to do so but without a grant of immunity.
    The prosecutor may refuse to present evidence submitted by a target. In federal grand juries, exculpatory evidence need not be presented, although in many states exculpatory evidence must be submitted for the grand jury’s consideration. Prosecutors have the right in federal grand juries to introduce hearsay and to otherwise utilize evidence that would not be admissible in a regular trial.
Is there a judge in the grand jury room when testimony is being taken?
  • No. Normal rules of evidence do not apply to a grand jury investigation, and a judge is generally needed only to rule on privilege issues or issues relating to contempt.
Here's the link, it was one of the sources for the wikipedia page I read. http://www.abanow.org/2010/03/faqs-a...d-jury-system/


What I get out of it is the 4th amendment exclusionary rule does not apply. "Evidence" the grand jury finds or uses in making their decision to bring criminal charges isn't necessarily admissable in a criminal case. Of course each state has their own variation of the rules.
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  #64  
Old 03-19-2012, 09:00 PM
master gunner master gunner is online now
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Thanks Mike.


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  #65  
Old 03-23-2012, 01:32 PM
magazineman magazineman is online now
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Busa Dave said the the world was a dangerous place & becoming worse. I have no stats on the rest of the planet, but the DOJ tracks crime statistics very well here in the US. Crime rates have been dwindling, fairly steadily, for decades. Overall it's a safer place.
Individual neighborhoods move up & down in crime levels but the trend IS less crime in general. Teen pregnancy, dropout rates & drug addiction in young people are going down too. The immediate assumption of the public is that things get worse. Well, Not all things. Some stuff improves.
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  #66  
Old 03-23-2012, 02:11 PM
GunBugBit GunBugBit is offline
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Dang, it hardly pays to be an aggressive punk any more.
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  #67  
Old 03-24-2012, 10:22 PM
Roadhouse Roadhouse is offline
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Old?

You folks speak as if us 65+ year old guys are pushing a walker.

don't mess with us, or those we care about.

Be well
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