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  #1  
Old 02-19-2012, 07:51 PM
PRS PRS is offline
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External extractor




Anyone have any idea why S&W went with an external extractor? To my knowledge they and Sig are they only people making a production 1911 with an external extractor. Why?
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  #2  
Old 02-19-2012, 07:59 PM
technosavant technosavant is offline
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Kimber uses them too.

External extractors don't require special tensioning; the spring keeps everything behaving easily with less need for special tweaking. There's a reason we aren't seeing internal extractors on other designs- while the internal works fine when properly adjusted, the externals (properly designed) are less hassle. While Kimber had issues getting it going properly, I don't think Sig or S&W has had problems with it.
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  #3  
Old 02-19-2012, 08:28 PM
jja327 jja327 is offline
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S&W has been using external extractors on their semi-autos for a long time. They applied it to the 1911 platform because it works.
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  #4  
Old 02-19-2012, 08:32 PM
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S&W has used external extractors since the M39 was introduced in the mid 1950's. They work just fine. The problems Kimber had has everyone all riled up over nothing. Actually, I have a Kimber with the last EE design and it runs 100% with anything I feed it. Some of the earlier designs had problems and between those problems and the uproar from the purists, Kimber abandoned the desgn. No worries about the S&W design. It's time proven.
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  #5  
Old 02-20-2012, 03:05 AM
Qwntm Qwntm is offline
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Not to mention also that John Moses went to an external extractor on the Hi Power, a gun he designed after the 1911. One has to wonder if he had the chance to do it over if he would have went external on the 1911 the second time around. I think he would have.

As for S&W's iteration, it just works with no hassle. What more could you want?
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  #6  
Old 02-20-2012, 03:56 PM
PRS PRS is offline
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Kimber doesn't use them anymore... I was just wondering why so few makers use them, not questioning there functionality.
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  #7  
Old 02-20-2012, 06:02 PM
BruceM BruceM is offline
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Quote:
As for S&W's iteration, it just works with no hassle. What more could you want?
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+1

Smith and Wesson has forgotten more about external extractors on autoloaders than most people know. The EE isn't the only thing Kimber has managed to get people all riled up about but that's something discussed in about 1,000 other threads.

Bruce
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  #8  
Old 02-20-2012, 06:14 PM
banjoboyjohn banjoboyjohn is offline
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Originally Posted by Qwntm View Post
Not to mention also that John Moses went to an external extractor on the Hi Power, a gun he designed after the 1911. One has to wonder if he had the chance to do it over if he would have went external on the 1911 the second time around. I think he would have.

As for S&W's iteration, it just works with no hassle. What more could you want?
browning didn't design the external extractor. he never saw the BHP past concept drawings. if i'm not mistaken, he chose the internal extractor to keep it easy to maintain in the feild ie. no roll pins to punch out and lose or get bent and easy disassembly and replacement.

i've even made a working extractor (just for kicks) out of a coat hanger and it fed and ejected 2 mags fine. it's brutally simple and easy to make. also, if an external extractor spring wears out, it's out of the game until you get a new spring. with an internal extractor, just re-tension it until you can replace it.

BTW, I like the internal extractor if you can't tell.

Last edited by banjoboyjohn; 02-20-2012 at 06:16 PM. Reason: TYPOS!
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  #9  
Old 02-20-2012, 06:35 PM
Redhat Redhat is offline
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Originally Posted by banjoboyjohn View Post
browning didn't design the external extractor. he never saw the BHP past concept drawings. if i'm not mistaken, he chose the internal extractor to keep it easy to maintain in the feild ie. no roll pins to punch out and lose or get bent and easy disassembly and replacement.

i've even made a working extractor (just for kicks) out of a coat hanger and it fed and ejected 2 mags fine. it's brutally simple and easy to make. also, if an external extractor spring wears out, it's out of the game until you get a new spring. with an internal extractor, just re-tension it until you can replace it.

BTW, I like the internal extractor if you can't tell.
Easy to maintain in the field? By who...the user? So the internal extractor is just a drop in part that can be replaced by anybody?

Last edited by Redhat; 02-20-2012 at 07:09 PM.
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  #10  
Old 02-20-2012, 07:01 PM
banjoboyjohn banjoboyjohn is offline
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Originally Posted by Redhat View Post
Easy to maintain in the field? By who...the user? So the external extractor is just a drop in part that can be replaced by anybody?
the external extractor itself is drop in as are the springs, but if the spring wears out and you begin to get malfunctions, you have to replace the spring before functionality can be restored. internal extractor are easy to re tension, until you can replace it.
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  #11  
Old 02-20-2012, 07:07 PM
Redhat Redhat is offline
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Originally Posted by banjoboyjohn View Post
the external extractor itself is drop in as are the springs, but if the spring wears out and you begin to get malfunctions, you have to replace the spring before functionality can be restored. internal extractor are easy to re tension, until you can replace it.
BB,

My apologies...in my last post I meant "internal extractor". I have edited my post accordingly.
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  #12  
Old 02-20-2012, 08:27 PM
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Originally Posted by PRS View Post
Kimber doesn't use them anymore... I was just wondering why so few makers use them, not questioning there functionality.
Kimber finally got it right. By the time they did, there was so much bad publicity there wasn't much choice but to abandon the concept. It's not a bad idea. No tuning is required. However, springs can wear out and need replacement. EE's are not a deal breaker to me if they are properly designed. The S&W's are properly designed.
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  #13  
Old 02-20-2012, 09:04 PM
Taroman Taroman is offline
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I have been shooting 1911s since 1967, including 23 years in the Army. In all that time I only had one extractor failure. That was during Army qualification firing. The extractor broke in half.
Not something I've ever been overly concerned with, internet keyboard kommandos notwithstanding.
Current 1011s include bith EE and IE variations. No Kimbers, however.
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  #14  
Old 02-20-2012, 09:14 PM
Redhat Redhat is offline
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Originally Posted by krehmkej View Post
I have been shooting 1911s since 1967, including 23 years in the Army. In all that time I only had one extractor failure. That was during Army qualification firing. The extractor broke in half.
Not something I've ever been overly concerned with, internet keyboard kommandos notwithstanding.
Current 1011s include bith EE and IE variations. No Kimbers, however.
I also have both and I don't care either way as long as it works.

I think it is also worth noting that most semi-autos these days have external extractors so I really can't see what all the hand wringing is about.
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  #15  
Old 02-21-2012, 12:13 AM
Qwntm Qwntm is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by banjoboyjohn View Post
browning didn't design the external extractor. he never saw the BHP past concept drawings. if i'm not mistaken, he chose the internal extractor to keep it easy to maintain in the feild ie. no roll pins to punch out and lose or get bent and easy disassembly and replacement.

i've even made a working extractor (just for kicks) out of a coat hanger and it fed and ejected 2 mags fine. it's brutally simple and easy to make. also, if an external extractor spring wears out, it's out of the game until you get a new spring. with an internal extractor, just re-tension it until you can replace it.

BTW, I like the internal extractor if you can't tell.
I remember reading where S&W said that the External Extractor on the S&W 1911's were good for the life of the gun with zero maintenance and they were saying the life of the gun was 100,000 rounds.

If you never have to do any maintenance and it's good for 100,000 rounds, where's the benefits to "field maintenance" or any "maintenance" for that matter.

The S&W external extractor the way S&W does it, is an improvement over the original design. There's no way the internal extractor can ever be "maintenance free" for the life of the gun. 100,000 rounds.

But I do understand you like what you like. No problem with that.
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  #16  
Old 02-21-2012, 12:15 AM
Qwntm Qwntm is offline
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Originally Posted by redhat View Post
i also have both and i don't care either way as long as it works.

I think it is also worth noting that most semi-autos these days have external extractors so i really can't see what all the hand wringing is about.
+1
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  #17  
Old 02-21-2012, 06:57 AM
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I think the hand wringing has more to do with aesthetics and tradition than with actual function.
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  #18  
Old 02-21-2012, 08:12 AM
Oldsalt65 Oldsalt65 is offline
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Originally Posted by epj View Post
I think the hand wringing has more to do with aesthetics and tradition than with actual function.
Bingo; the S&W external extractors provide excellent, reliable service and according to Hilton Yam, who I trust explicitly, the S&W external extractors are actually a design improvementover the original internal extractors.

Smith and Wesson has been doing external extractors for decades and they know how to do them right.

If someone doesn't like them because they aren't " traditional" that's certainly their business; but they work extremely well on all my high round count S&W pistols and it works perfectly on my E Series 1911TA.
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  #19  
Old 02-21-2012, 12:21 PM
Ruber Ruber is offline
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Originally Posted by Qwntm View Post
Not to mention also that John Moses went to an external extractor on the Hi Power, a gun he designed after the 1911.
Yep, just like this one--


Sorry, couldn't help myself...

Looking at many of the early drawings and photos, I always felt JMB didn't care either way. Both internal and external extractors were in use when the 1911 was being designed, and the client (The Services) requested the internal.

Given that metallurgy was not what it is now, if told to go out into the forests for extended periods of time for fighting, I would say give me a Colt GI and a bunch of spare parts. Anyone with good working knowledge of the gun should be able to fit and tune an internal extractor with tools in his pack.

I'm in the field now for 3-4 days max and have access to vices, presses, etc., so I really like my external extractors. I've got a few S&Ws with the external extractors that work great and make great field guns.

Actually have 1911s and HPs both with internal and external extractors. Ain't giving any of them up...

Last edited by Ruber; 02-21-2012 at 02:23 PM.
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  #20  
Old 02-21-2012, 05:32 PM
Seawolf_504 Seawolf_504 is offline
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I like it. I think it's the primary reason why my 1911PD is as reliable as my Glocks. I've owned other traditional 1911 platforms where I have had to go in and swap out parts and "tune" the gun to get it to run 100%
This SW1911PD is the first 1911 where I didn't have to tinker or tune anything. I think S&W did a great job of mixing what works on the original design with new things like the external extractor that work today on modern pistols.
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  #21  
Old 02-21-2012, 11:38 PM
Qwntm Qwntm is offline
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Originally Posted by Ruber View Post
Yep, just like this one--


Sorry, couldn't help myself...

Looking at many of the early drawings and photos, I always felt JMB didn't care either way. Both internal and external extractors were in use when the 1911 was being designed, and the client (The Services) requested the internal.

Given that metallurgy was not what it is now, if told to go out into the forests for extended periods of time for fighting, I would say give me a Colt GI and a bunch of spare parts. Anyone with good working knowledge of the gun should be able to fit and tune an internal extractor with tools in his pack.

I'm in the field now for 3-4 days max and have access to vices, presses, etc., so I really like my external extractors. I've got a few S&Ws with the external extractors that work great and make great field guns.

Actually have 1911s and HPs both with internal and external extractors. Ain't giving any of them up...
Yes, all is true EXCEPT for the fact that we are now in 2012 and modern metallurgy and tooling is what we got. Internal extractors are so last century...
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  #22  
Old 02-22-2012, 12:31 AM
banjoboyjohn banjoboyjohn is offline
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Originally Posted by Qwntm View Post
Yes, all is true EXCEPT for the fact that we are now in 2012 and modern metallurgy and tooling is what we got. Internal extractors are so last century...
The only difference between an internal and external extractor is how tension is applied. The internal extractor was designed over 100 years ago, but neither physics nor mans mortality has changed in those 100 years. The external is more "user friendly" since it doesn't have to be tensioned, but the internal is field expedient.

I'm not against external extractors, but I've never had a problem out of the internal so that's what I use.
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  #23  
Old 02-23-2012, 03:29 PM
dakota1911 dakota1911 is offline
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Agree. As long as they work I do not care.
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  #24  
Old 02-24-2012, 09:39 PM
ColColt ColColt is offline
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My S&W 4506 is 21 years old and has the external extractor. I'ts never failed and never needed replacing. BTW-HK also has pistols with the external extractor and they're most reliable.
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  #25  
Old 02-24-2012, 10:02 PM
Redhat Redhat is offline
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My S&W 4506 is 21 years old and has the external extractor. I'ts never failed and never needed replacing. BTW-HK also has pistols with the external extractor and they're most reliable.
Along with Beretta, Glock and so on....
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