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  #1  
Old 05-02-2011, 09:28 AM
TxAv8r TxAv8r is offline
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Polygon Barrel for 1911?




Howdy Folks.
Glock, Kahr, HK, Marlin, and Desert Eagle dont have rifled barrels. They have polygon barrels (no lans or grooves).

Those manufacturers claim a better gas seal around the projectile, and reduced friction between the barrel and the projectile, resulting in ever so slight increases in projectile velocity and reduced wear on the barrel.

Comparative charts seem to support their claims.

In my recent exploration of all-things-1911, I've discovered that you can get eveything from training wheels to photon torpedos to trick out your 1911. There seems to be no limit to what you can do to it (even if you perhaps shouldn't)

One thing I have NOT seen.... aftermarket polygon barrel for 1911.

Yall have been at this 1911 thing a lot longer than I. Anybody ever see one of the polygon barrels out there for the 1911? If so, could you point me the right direction?

Not saying I'm gonna do it. Just researching.

Thanks.

Last edited by TxAv8r; 05-02-2011 at 11:38 AM.
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  #2  
Old 05-02-2011, 09:33 AM
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LW McVay LW McVay is offline
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Why?
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  #3  
Old 05-02-2011, 09:52 AM
TxAv8r TxAv8r is offline
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Second sentence from the 1st post:

Increased velocity Decreased wear.



oh, and its also easier to clean. But thats not a "real" reason, just an added benefit.

Last edited by TxAv8r; 05-02-2011 at 09:56 AM.
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  #4  
Old 05-02-2011, 10:00 AM
TxAv8r TxAv8r is offline
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Nevermind, all.

I found answers.

Thanks.
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  #5  
Old 05-02-2011, 10:30 AM
Johnny handgun Johnny handgun is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TxAv8r View Post
Nevermind, all.

I found answers.

Thanks.


Hey, if you have some disposable income, I could really use some help on my medical bills.
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  #6  
Old 05-02-2011, 10:40 AM
BBQLS1 BBQLS1 is offline
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Probably because it's not traditional. Also, many shoot lead bullets and that's usually a no-no in Octagonal barrels.
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  #7  
Old 05-02-2011, 11:30 AM
TxAv8r TxAv8r is offline
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Longslides
Commanders
Defenders
full guide rods
recoil buffers
extended slide stops
ambidextrous safety
Extended magazine releases
Extended Magazines
looped hammers
rail mounts
adjustable sights
fiber optic sights
tritium/trijicon sights
press-check serrations
flat mainspring houseings
textured front straps
Synthertic grips
Metal grips
Stag-horn grips
synthetic grips
flared ejector ports
ramped barrels
linkless barrels
bull barrels
Ported barrels
Compensated Barrels
Aluminum frames
STAINLESS STEEL

NONE of these things were designed by John Browning. But That doesnt necessarily mean that they are "Bad"....or pointless. The go-to response of "If John M. Browning didnt design it, it doesnt need to be done" is REALLY tiresome.

Browning was a damn good engineer on the 1911 and many other weapons. But he wasnt a GOD. The evolution...or simple modification of the design doesnt STOP with him. One of the greatest beauties of his brain-child is how well it adapts to our CENTURY of modifications of ALL sorts. Making his basic platform our own personal, unique expressions of what we want.

Browning accomplished engineering immortality by thinking outside the box and not accepting established traditionalism as a limit to his design. I would hope that his open mindedness would serve as an example to those who spend so much time praising his genius. Deservedly so.

It is disappointing how few people seem to do so.

If ya want rifling go for it....if ya want polygon....go for it....if ya want a f-ing smooth bore...go for it.

I've made three posts which have explored non-traditional thinking. NONE have said that anyone else's beliefs are "wrong" but it seems to act like a lightning rod for other to jump in there and tell me that anything different from what everyone else does....is wrong.

seems to me it would be kinda depressing living life with such exceptionally narrow perspective.

I'd think folks would be more open to exploring alternative ideas....especially if someone else is willing to be the guinea pig.
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  #8  
Old 05-02-2011, 11:37 AM
TxAv8r TxAv8r is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny handgun View Post
Hey, if you have some disposable income, I could really use some help on my medical bills.
If I didnt have SOME disposable income...I wouldnt be able to shoot anything.

But Im not looking to change barrels JUST to get Polygon.

I'm exploring the idea of changing barrels. And as I research the various features that should be considered, I'd also like to consider Polygon options, if available.
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  #9  
Old 05-02-2011, 11:59 AM
too_pure too_pure is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TxAv8r View Post
Longslides
Commanders
Defenders
full guide rods
recoil buffers
extended slide stops
ambidextrous safety
Extended magazine releases
Extended Magazines
looped hammers
rail mounts
adjustable sights
fiber optic sights
tritium/trijicon sights
press-check serrations
flat mainspring houseings
textured front straps
Synthertic grips
Metal grips
Stag-horn grips
synthetic grips
flared ejector ports
ramped barrels
linkless barrels
bull barrels
Ported barrels
Compensated Barrels
Aluminum frames
STAINLESS STEEL

NONE of these things were designed by John Browning. But That doesnt necessarily mean that they are "Bad"....or pointless. The go-to response of "If John M. Browning didnt design it, it doesnt need to be done" is REALLY tiresome.

Browning was a damn good engineer on the 1911 and many other weapons. But he wasnt a GOD. The evolution...or simple modification of the design doesnt STOP with him. One of the greatest beauties of his brain-child is how well it adapts to our CENTURY of modifications of ALL sorts. Making his basic platform our own personal, unique expressions of what we want.

Browning accomplished engineering immortality by thinking outside the box and not accepting established traditionalism as a limit to his design. I would hope that his open mindedness would serve as an example to those who spend so much time praising his genius. Deservedly so.

It is disappointing how few people seem to do so.

If ya want rifling go for it....if ya want polygon....go for it....if ya want a f-ing smooth bore...go for it.

I've made three posts which have explored non-traditional thinking. NONE have said that anyone else's beliefs are "wrong" but it seems to act like a lightning rod for other to jump in there and tell me that anything different from what everyone else does....is wrong.

seems to me it would be kinda depressing living life with such exceptionally narrow perspective.

I'd think folks would be more open to exploring alternative ideas....especially if someone else is willing to be the guinea pig.


+1
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  #10  
Old 05-02-2011, 12:00 PM
crabbybum crabbybum is offline
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Contact Kart or another barrel maker. See if they ever tried the design. It just might be as simple as no one has ever asked for one.
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  #11  
Old 05-02-2011, 12:15 PM
master gunner master gunner is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TxAv8r View Post
Nevermind, all.

I found answers.

Thanks.
So what were they; inquiring minds want to know.

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  #12  
Old 05-02-2011, 12:19 PM
TxAv8r TxAv8r is offline
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supposedly -
Scheunmann
or
Peters-Stahl

No details available from either website, but I've sent them a request for more info
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  #13  
Old 05-02-2011, 12:27 PM
richpetrone richpetrone is offline
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Polygon barrel

Quote:
Also, many shoot lead bullets and that's usually a no-no in Octagonal barrels.
I have heard the same. It has been advised before (I think on this Forum), that when shooting a Glock with the original polygon barrel, shoot jacketed ammo, otherwise a LRN bullet will lead up the barrel. It has also been mentioned that Lone Wolf makes aftermarket Glock barrels that will not lead up, so these barrels may have conventional rifling.

Personally, I would rather have a barrel that shoots both lead and FMJ ammo. If using a polygon barrel offered superior accuracy over a standard barrel, I would consider this as an option for a Target Grade gun.
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  #14  
Old 05-02-2011, 12:37 PM
PD Sgt. PD Sgt. is offline
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I think a big reason that polygonal barrels have not gained a lot of traction with 1911 users is what BBQLS1 stated; many 1911 shooters shoot a lot of lead, and this is discouraged in polygonal barrels.

Some people claim lead is okay in poly barrels, as long as you clean them every few hundred rounds and don't allow build up. I personally don't run lead in my polys, but to me plated are not that much more expensive. The poly barrels are easier to clean in my experience.

I certainly won't knock you for trying something outside traditional. I would be interested in seeing if there is a marked improvement with a poly barrel properly fitted into a 1911 that already had a baseline from a traditional rifled barrel. While personally I don't think it would be a huge difference in a quality pistol, if you do end up getting one made you should post the results for the rest of the Forum.
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  #15  
Old 05-02-2011, 12:57 PM
TxAv8r TxAv8r is offline
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Most mabufacturers also discourage use of ANY reloads (some even void warranties) due to unpredictable quality control.

But that precaution seems more readily discarded by those picking and choosing what "guidelines" they think are valid.

FOR ME....I've been pushing lead practice rounds and jacketed SXT duty rounds out of my G20 for many many many years.

Maybe I'm the lucky exception. Maybe tragedy is just around the corner for me.

I know I am far more vigilant for fouling and have seen none.

But then again, I've never been the kinda guy to ride it hard and put it up wet.

Use it, clean it, prepare it for the next use.
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  #16  
Old 05-02-2011, 01:09 PM
crabbybum crabbybum is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by richpetrone View Post
I have heard the same. It has been advised before (I think on this Forum), that when shooting a Glock with the original polygon barrel, shoot jacketed ammo, otherwise a LRN bullet will lead up the barrel. It has also been mentioned that Lone Wolf makes aftermarket Glock barrels that will not lead up, so these barrels may have conventional rifling.

Personally, I would rather have a barrel that shoots both lead and FMJ ammo. If using a polygon barrel offered superior accuracy over a standard barrel, I would consider this as an option for a Target Grade gun.
Considering the accuracy of many of the Bullseye guns out there, and not talking about just an elite group of five or ten shooters, but even local average Joe's, I can't believe that crowd wouldn't have tried a polygonal barrel before.

I would love to hear Greg Derr's opinion on the subject.
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  #17  
Old 05-02-2011, 01:22 PM
tipoc tipoc is offline
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There is actually an interesting discussion of this topic here...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polygonal_rifling

The reasons for the preferences given in this article make sense to me and I've heard them before. Meaning they don't shock me.

Cost and tradition. Also the gain of transitioning to hammer forged barrels with polygonal rifling is minimal at least now. For Colt, Kimber, Springfield, etc. to junk their machinery for rifled barrels and invest in new equipment for hammer forged barrels is not likely to occur unless there is a deep demand for polygonal rifling in handguns and there is not. Any gain received from them is minimal. In fact the gain to manufacturers with polygonal rifling is in reduced costs over time it seems, with larger contracts. As the article points out as far as accuracy goes bullseye shooters tend to prefer the rifled barrels as more versatile.

tipoc
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  #18  
Old 05-02-2011, 01:50 PM
TxAv8r TxAv8r is offline
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Very valuable resource.

Thank you.

I have no plans to be a precision shooter. a one-inch group or a three-inch group would still be on-target in a statistically realistic defense scenario.

So Polygon would be an exceptionally viable option for me...if it were available for the 1911. But it isnt. Oh well....nice idea.

Thank you for the rational in-put.
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  #19  
Old 05-02-2011, 02:38 PM
Jim Watson Jim Watson is online now
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Lothar Walther advertises them:

"Lothar Walther is proud to introduce its new line of match stainless steel barrels for the M1911 pistol. Now, the high level of quality that has been known for so long in the rifle world is applied to barrels for the M1911. These barrels come fully machined from LW49 stainless steel, chambered, crowned, polished and hardened. These barrels are available in a ramped and a standard version. Both are available in conventional rifling and polygon rifling. Other types will become available in the future."

Give them a call. US agent listed as:

Lothar Walther Precision Tools, Inc.
3425 Hutchinson Rd.
Cumming, GA 30040

Phone: 770-889-9998
Fax: 770-889-4919
E-Mail:
lotharwalther@ mindspring.com
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  #20  
Old 05-02-2011, 03:10 PM
TxAv8r TxAv8r is offline
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Just when I thought I was SOL

You refresh my optomism.

Thank you.
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  #21  
Old 05-02-2011, 03:18 PM
1911Collector 1911Collector is offline
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Do you plan to shoot lead? If so I would forego a polygonal rifled barrel.

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  #22  
Old 05-02-2011, 03:36 PM
TxAv8r TxAv8r is offline
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IF I can find one that'll fit a 4.33" "Commander"

AND IF I can afford it.

I'll give strong consideration to making the switch and foregoing lead (spend the extra nickle per round)

If I can get him to make it for me in a 10mm cartridge for the same 4.33" "Commander".....I switch in a heart-beat and never look back.

IF is it rationally affordable.

I'll et yall know what they say.
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  #23  
Old 05-02-2011, 03:36 PM
DevilDave1911 DevilDave1911 is offline
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As an alternative, if you want increased velocity, just shoot 185 grn rounds. Also, I highly doubt you will ever be able to shoot the rifling out of your traditional 1911 barrel...it will outlast most of us even under heavy shooting conditions. Let us know if you make the conversion and what the major differences are..of course it will all have to be crony'd.
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  #24  
Old 05-02-2011, 03:57 PM
TxAv8r TxAv8r is offline
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ABSOLUTELY!!!

Massad Ayoob said that a polygonal barrel gives an increase of about 100fps to a 357-sig round fired through a comparable length rifled barrel.

That's nice, but far from being significant.

Some resources say more accruate....some say less accruate. Neither gain or loss is significant.

Improved wear....but it that means improving the life from 30,000 rounds to 40,000 rounds (numbers used jusr for a random example)...I dont consider that significant since I dont live at the range and have other things to do with a majority of my money.

So......while it has a certain "gosh, that would be nice" appeal....unless it is real frigg'n cheap....it aint worth doing.
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  #25  
Old 05-02-2011, 04:10 PM
crabbybum crabbybum is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TxAv8r View Post
IF I can find one that'll fit a 4.33" "Commander"

AND IF I can afford it.

I'll give strong consideration to making the switch and foregoing lead (spend the extra nickle per round)

If I can get him to make it for me in a 10mm cartridge for the same 4.33" "Commander".....I switch in a heart-beat and never look back.

IF is it rationally affordable.

I'll et yall know what they say.
Who makes a Commander with a 4 1/3" barrel? Unless you have the barrel threaded for a suppressor.
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