New Loading Data From Alliant

[Col. Mortimer]

I was concerned regarding the load for Power Pistol as different book had significantly data. I emailed Alliant and received the following data that is different for Power Pistol. The Alliant web site and some books had a maximum load of 6.4 gr. for 124/125 gr. bullets. I did not check the other powders and bullet weights. The email said they used Speer bullets for the web site, inplying the differences are due to the bullet type. I hope this info keeps everyone safe.

9mm Luger

115 gr lead bullet
Bullseye start 4 grs max 4.5 grs
Unique start 4.5 max 5 grs
Power Pistol start 5 grs max 5.5 grs

115 gr jacketed bullet
Bullseye start 4 grs max 4.5 grs
Unique start 4.5 grs max 5.5 grs
Power Pistol start 5.9 grs max 6.3 grs

124/125 gr lead
Bullseye start 3.8 grs max 4.3 grs
Unique start 4 grs max 4.5 grs
Power Pistol start 4.8 grs max 5.3 grs

124/125 gr jacketed
Bullseye start 3.9 grs max 4.3 grs
Unique start 4.5 grs max 5 grs
Power Pistol start 5 grs max 5.5 grs

147 gr lead
Bullseye start 2.8 grs max 3.3 grs
Unique start 3.2 grs max 3.6 grs
Power Pistol start 4 grs max 4.5 grs

147 gr jacketed
Unique start 4 grs max 4.5 grs
Power Pistol start 4.5 grs max 5 grs

Note: Start with the minimum charge wt. Reload just a few and be sure they will properly cycle the action of your pistol before reloading a quantity.

[makeminea1911]

Good to know. Thanks for sharing.

[Nick A]

Well, that is very interesting information.

They are correct. Different bullet construction surely makes a difference. The Gold Dot is a very unique bullet.

[AlaskaMike]

You have to wonder why they don't have that data available via the web site.

[Nick A]

You have to wonder why they don't have that data available via the web site.

Just a guess...
They want you to buy Gold Dot bullets.

[Hammerdown77]

I wish they would list more lead bullet loads using Power Pistol. I've found it (based on WESHOOT2's recommendations) to be fantastic in revolver cartridges with cast lead, and recently I've been experimenting with it in .45 Auto in my 1911 using 230 gr. LRN. I worked up to 7 grains and found terrific accuracy, but I'm concerned I might be in +P territory (have not chrono'd this load yet). I sent Alliant an email asking for their input.

[340six]

Originally Posted by Nick A

Just a guess...
They want you to buy Gold Dot bullets.

and or buy more books

[40dcoe]

Originally Posted by Col. Mortimer

124/125 gr lead
Bullseye start 3.8 grs max 4.3 grs
Unique start 4 grs max 4.5 grs
Power Pistol start 4.8 grs max 5.3 grs

124/125 gr jacketed
Bullseye start 3.9 grs max 4.3 grs
Unique start 4.5 grs max 5 grs
Power Pistol start 5 grs max 5.5 grs

I know it sounds ridiculous, but I think Alliant doesn't know what they are
talking about.

I load a 120 gr lead bullet over 5.0 grains of Unique, and it is a LIGHT load.
My 2004 Alliant guide says 5.5 grains of Unique is max for 125 gr lead
bullet. Makes alot more sense than 4.5 max.

As for the jacketed bullet, this is what Alliant's website says:

http://www.alliantpowder.com/reloade...23&bulletid=26

5.8 grains of Unique as max. Their words.

Joe

[Steve4102]

Call me "stupid", but some of the comments here and the load data from Alliant have me confused.

According to their web site they list the Gold Dot HP in the 9mm. They list the following.

115gr GDHP
Unique-6.3gr
Bullseye-4.7gr

124gr GDHP
Unique-5.8gr
Bullseye-4.4gr

147gr GDHP
Unique-4.3gr

Their online GD data is not even close to the data you received by email. Either I am totally confused or the guy that sent you the email was even more confused.

[Steve4102]

Originally Posted by Col. Mortimer

I was concerned regarding the load for Power Pistol as different book had significantly data. I emailed Alliant and received the following data that is different for Power Pistol. The Alliant web site and some books had a maximum load of 6.4 gr. for 124/125 gr. bullets. I did not check the other powders and bullet weights. The email said they used Speer bullets for the web site, inplying the differences are due to the bullet type. I hope this info keeps everyone safe.

.

So what "Bullet Type" is this new data using??

[Col. Mortimer]

Originally Posted by Steve4102

So what "Bullet Type" is this new data using??

I mentioned in my email I was using Zero bullets. I was concerned when I checked the primers (CCI) and they seemed to be slightly bulged. It was not cratering. More like a gently sloping mound rather than a steep ring around the firing pin indent. The Sierra manual shows a max load of 5.7 gr. so their data is in line with this data. I noticed in the Accurate Arms chart, the load varies significantly depending on the brand of bullet.

[Col. Mortimer]

Originally Posted by Steve4102

Call me "stupid", but some of the comments here and the load data from Alliant have me confused.

According to their web site they list the Gold Dot HP in the 9mm. They list the following.

115gr GDHP
Unique-6.3gr
Bullseye-4.7gr

124gr GDHP
Unique-5.8gr
Bullseye-4.4gr

147gr GDHP
Unique-4.3gr

Their online GD data is not even close to the data you received by email. Either I am totally confused or the guy that sent you the email was even more confused.

Just kidding. It is obvious there is a huge difference. It may be the data can vary depending on the bullet type. Check the Accurate Arms reloading data for examples. There seems to be a wide spread in load data for Power Pistol. You will notice the online data specifically references GD bullets. I posted this info as a reminder that different bullets can result in significantly difference results. That's why it is always smart to start with the minimum load and chrono to check your results with different bullets. If you have worked up a safe load, you're fine and don't sweat it.

[Steve4102]

Originally Posted by Col. Mortimer

Just kidding. It is obvious there is a huge difference. It may be the data can vary depending on the bullet type. .

According to Speer/Alliant the Gold Dot loads the same as their plain old TMJ and JHP. That would be 115gr = 6.2-6.7gr Power Pistol for all three bullets only one being a Gold Dot. No difference at all really.

[Nick A]

It's hard for some folks to believe, but the Speer Gold Dot is a copper plated bullet.

It is not jacketed.



http://www.speer-ammo.com/products/gold_dot_const.aspx

Uni-Cor technology bonds an incredibly uniform jacket to the core - one molecule at a time.

That's what they mean by "one molecule at a time". The lead core is electroplated with a copper coating just like Berrys, Rainier, Xtreme, Powerbond & Frontier.

Same with their TMJ bullet. It's a plated bullet also.

[Steve4102]

Originally Posted by Nick A

It's hard for some folks to believe, but the Speer Gold Dot is a copper plated bullet.

It is not jacketed.



http://www.speer-ammo.com/products/gold_dot_const.aspx
That's what they mean by "one molecule at a time". The lead core is electroplated with a copper coating just like Berrys, Rainier, Xtreme, Powerbond & Frontier.

Same with their TMJ bullet. It's a plated bullet also.

So, aren't plated bullets usually loaded a bit hotter than lead, but weaker than Jacketed?

Speer/Alliant data for their "plated" bullets is much higher than their data for true Jacketed bullets posted by the OP.

[Nick A]

Of course, none of us on 1911Forum can answer that one, Steve. Maybe ATK/Speer/Alliant can shed some light. Why would they publish one load range for GD, then email Mortimer with a whole different (safer and lower) load range for other bullets. Give them a call in the morning.

[noylj]

Gold dots are a thick-plating of Cu, not a normal jacket.
Remember, they are testing and reporting what they get in their test barrels. They are only reporting the results of their testing, and reporting a STARTING load that they consider safe for all guns properly chambered and in good condition.
I will always advocate finding the lowest start load in various manuals and starting there.

[john16443]

Originally Posted by Nick A

Of course, none of us on 1911Forum can answer that one, Steve. Maybe ATK/Speer/Alliant can shed some light. Why would they publish one load range for GD, then email Mortimer with a whole different (safer and lower) load range for other bullets. Give them a call in the morning.

I did call/email them earlier this week specifically to ask them about the total length of the TMJ and gold dot 230 gr bullets in 45 cal, and their 115gr 9mm counterparts. When they responded with the length information, the 115 gr GD was slightly shorter than the TMJ RN, which is what I expected for a hollow point/round nose comparison. To my surprise, the 230gr GD is longer (0.670") than the TMJ (0.655"). That wasn't what I was expecting, so I emailed back to have them check again. The tech responded that she did indeed consult with the engineers and the engineering drawings, and the dimensions she provided were correct.

That tells me that the loads for the GD and TMJ need to be different because of the difference in insertion depths for the bullets. That depth changes case volume, so the charge should change.

While I don't have it in front of me, my copy of the one manual/one caliber book for 45 ACP(or whatever the title is) contains specific direction in the Speer loading section to make sure you use a specific table for the gold dots. They provided a separate table for the TMJ's in that book.

[Hammerdown77]

I emailed Alliant concerning Power Pistol load data for .45 ACP 230 gr. lead bullets, and also for more info on their data for the Gold Dot and Speer TJM. The max load of PP for the Gold Dot is 7.4 grains, but for the TJM bullet it is 8.1. This goes along with what they told you about the Gold Dot being longer. Also, they said that the max load for the TJM bullet could not be used with a standard FMJ bullet.

[orrwdd]

Originally Posted by Hammerdown77

Also, they said that the max load for the TJM bullet could not be used with a standard FMJ bullet.

Probably because the FMJ has exposed lead at the back of the bullet and the TMJ does not.

Bill

[Nick A]

Bill, that would burn some lead off the fmj, but wouldn't seem to cause an increase in pressure. Any thoughts?

I keep reading that pure copper plating has a lower coefficient of dynamic friction than gilding metal jackets. That would certainly make a difference in a universal receiver with extremely tight bore, at least enough difference a transducer can detect.

Note: Lyman tech tells me that the lead bullet rifle loads (using pistol powder) in the Lyman 49th are dangerous if used with a jacketed bullet because the added friction slows the bullet down too much. He strongly advises against the use of jacketed rifle bullets with the Lyman reduced loads for lead bullets.

So maybe that's something the Alliant people recognize as well. Any thoughts on that?

[Nick A]

Now that gets me challenged. I'm going to select a few reasonable loads with Gold Dot, Berry's, and fmj and run a chrono test. I think I'll use a Gold Cup National Match, it's the most consistent barrel I have. I have some standard fmj and some high-zinc Montana Gold fmj. But I gotta go buy some GD in 230 grain. I don't have any on hand.

[RetiredRod]

Originally Posted by Nick A

Now that gets me challenged. I'm going to select a few reasonable loads with Gold Dot, Berry's, and fmj and run a chrono test. I think I'll use a Gold Cup National Match, it's the most consistent barrel I have. I have some standard fmj and some high-zinc Montana Gold fmj. But I gotta go buy some GD in 230 grain. I don't have any on hand.

Nick, I'd like to see what results you get with this. I'm also of the same opinon regarding the coefficient of friction of copper plating vs gilding jackets.

[59Bassman]

Did they give any suggested OALs for the 9mm loads?

[noylj]

Having shoot lead bullets for over 35 years, I can assure you that the flame does not melt the lead at the base of a bullet. There is a large heat-sink that is the bullet and a very short time that the flame temperature has to heat the lead. There is no time for anything, other than the propellant, to ignite/burn/melt.
Some people have even placed temperature wax on the base of the bullet and the wax hasn't changed color.
Also, I STILL want to point out that the Gold Dot is NOT a JACKETED bullet.
And, if you start at the lowest start load and load with the longest COL that works in your gun, all this talk would be completely pointless.