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  #1  
Old 05-02-2009, 08:59 PM
brumey brumey is offline
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RCBS 2000 - Powder spill as plate rotates?




Hello:
I am finally doing my trial reloads on a new RCBS 2000 (auto Index). It's new and I'm new to reloading. I think I have all the stages working but I am testing every few rounds for size, powder, etc. I have noticed the following which leads me to ask the experts, especially those with progresive presses a couple of questions.

When my .45ACP shell moves from the powder station to next powder checker die, the movement seems to shake some of the powder out. I am using 4.9gn of Bullseye with X-treme plated 230gn bullets. As per RNL recipe from Hornady book. I know it's only a few flakes, maybe 4-8 but it all adds up. Reduced load, spilt powder buildup on the press and waste. Is this normal? It seems to be the natural movement of the auto indexing mechanism that throws the shell around. Maybe an adjustment to the auto indexer is needed.

My other question was about checking the resulting round with a Dillon case guage. 1 in 5 of my test rounds would not go al the way into the case guage. Using a digital caliper measure, they are or seem to be well within diameter and legnth specification. Is this a problem, should I reject these rounds. They either don't push down all the way staying above the case guage maybe a 1/16th or even 1/32". Others are fine which is confusing me.

Thanks again,
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  #2  
Old 05-02-2009, 09:34 PM
partsproduction partsproduction is offline
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I have the same problem, but I did tone it down by cutting a coil off the spring under the ball.
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  #3  
Old 05-02-2009, 09:50 PM
brumey brumey is offline
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Thanks for the reply. I know the spring your refering too. It keeps the upward tension to the shell plate (I think). Seems to me the indexing of the plate is too aggresive. The metal cam plate may benefot from a more shallow angle to make the indexing more controlled. I might give RCBS a call/email on that one.

I'm perplexed how one completed round or in fact 80%+ are fine when checked in the case guage and others are not. I know I purchased 500 reloaded rounds at a gun show a few months ago before getting started in reloading. When I checked those, I found probably 40 or 50 with the same symptom. Maybe my Dillon case guage is a little tight on specification? All now Winchester WB ammo goes in just fine.

Thanks again....
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  #4  
Old 05-02-2009, 11:20 PM
brumey brumey is offline
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For my second issue, I just ordered Lee Factory Crimp dies from Midway (backorder). For a very quick read, it seems that you can run a loaded round into this die and it will uniform the size better that the RCBS. I got one for my other caliber of choice too .38.

My plan, without too much knowledge it to seperate any completed rounds that don't chamber in the case guage and then run them through the Lee die in a batch. I'll keep the Lee dies in a seperate RCBS plate so I can use the same press.

Hopefully I didn't make an incorrect choice here.

Thanks...
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  #5  
Old 05-03-2009, 07:43 AM
partsproduction partsproduction is offline
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I was about to reply with advice to try the Lee Factory Crimp die when I saw your last post. I'm not familiar with the Dillon case gage, but got the impression you may be referring to bullet bulge. A certain brand of cast bullets has almost always caused my cases to bulge far enough that a few won't chamber, the LFC die solved that.

It's a pain though as it won't fit in the Pro2000 without taking something else out, and I really depend on the most likely candidate, the lock out die. I run all rounds through a LFC die in a single stage press.

Some have said they use a powder through die in station #2, and put the lock out die in station 3, but that means finding a way to swap out the powder measure for every caliber change. Probably not as big a deal as I'm making it out to be.
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  #6  
Old 05-03-2009, 08:16 AM
JohnC JohnC is offline
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Do the cases that won't fit in the case gauge fit into the chamber okay? Pull the barrel and check. If they do don't sweat it. I have some cases that do that same exact thing on my Dillon 550B and my Dillon case gauge. I'm using Dillon dies. However all fit the chamber of multiple guns fine so I ignore that 1/16". I once bought 500 rds of WWB at Walmart about 4 years ago that had "Made in the Czech Republic" on the boxes. The head stamp is slightly different and those are the cases I have the problem with. There may still be a thread on the forum here discussing those cases. I do not use a Lee FCD. Here is one reference to the Czech brass: http://forums.1911forum.com/showthre...czech+republic Just thought of something. Any of this brass fired in a Glock? I myself use .45 ACP brass fired in my Glock .45 and other guns without a problem though. I do not separate them or perform and extra resizing or post loaded sizing steps.

Last edited by JohnC; 05-03-2009 at 08:29 AM.
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  #7  
Old 05-03-2009, 08:37 AM
WalterGC WalterGC is offline
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I'd 86 the Lockout Die, since you're using the self-indexing version of that press. Would figure out some way to use a Lee FCD, and would probably use a Lee sizing die. I load on a 650, which lets me use the Lockout Die and the FCD without doing anything radical.
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  #8  
Old 05-03-2009, 11:14 AM
brumey brumey is offline
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Thanks all....

I shoot a Kimber and a Glock .45. I have not been seperating them. In fact, I'm not sorting by head stamp either. I have a mixture of range pickups, used brass and once fired by me. I wish I had of seperated the once fired by me brass and will probably do so going forward.

I too like the lockout die, as a beginner and someone who could get distracted.

My plan going forward is to seperate the rounds that don't 'chamber' in the Dillon case guage and run them through the LFD in a seperate session.

I am still interested in knowing what dimension is not allowing the round to chamber. I think I'll try in my Kimber and Glock this morning as a test and get the caliper measure out again.

I ordered the Lee Factory Crimp die for .38's too. I am not sure if they exibit similat issues or not but I have about 3000 to reload.
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  #9  
Old 05-03-2009, 12:41 PM
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Butthead Butthead is offline
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I bet the rims are minutely oversize on the rounds that won't go into the Dillon case gauge all the way.

I noticed that myself, and spinning the rims on the finest grit of sandpaper fixed that for me.
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  #10  
Old 05-03-2009, 12:45 PM
PROGUN PROGUN is offline
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The LEE FCD helps in resizing the loaded case to factory specs and also helps realign the bullet in the case, so when shooting lead you will see less leading in the barrel. Keep in mind the more powder in the case the better chance powder will spill when the shell plate moves. Try 4gr of BE for that bullet, you should get good accuracy, with less recoil, unless you need the higher PF.
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  #11  
Old 05-03-2009, 01:34 PM
brumey brumey is offline
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PROGUN - You have a good point on the powder and you answered another thought I had. The Lee Carbide Factory Crimp Die's and re-sizing a loaded round. Seems that is possible so I'll just seperate all the rounds that don't chamber now and re-size when I get the Lee dies. I assume being Carbide that no lube is needed.

On the powder, I am reloading for range target work, not competition, just to get practice. Maybe I should reduce to load which may also reduce the spill.

I'll try a batch with 4.5 and 4.1.

I do have a Chronograph (still in the box) and I hope to ntest me various flavors of loads too. As I am using plated bullets, I understand I cannot go to the higher loads although Hornady's guide said I can go as high as 5.3gn for 230gn lead.

Hopefully I'll have enough knowledge to contribute to the forum in future months/years. It's a great resource.
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  #12  
Old 05-03-2009, 05:39 PM
PROGUN PROGUN is offline
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Yea, unless you need the 165PF to shoot the "games" it is a lot more fun to load down as long as function and accuracy still happen. I had a L-N-L that spilled powder real bad when it indexed and I never did find a fix for that. My PRO 2000 has manual indexing so when I load compressed loads I can cover the case mouth with my finger and turn the shell plate real slow. Also, good load notes are a way of not solving the same problem over and over, this I know
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  #13  
Old 05-03-2009, 06:52 PM
brumey brumey is offline
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All: I did a quick unscienticic test to try and determine what was causing some shells to not fit in the case gauge after loading. Measurements OAL and neck diameter seem fine.

I checked unsized cased upside down in the case gauge. Found 5 that would not fit in the gauge and 5 that did just like a WWN new round. All cases Winchester too. I marked the good and questionable with a sharpe and proceeded to reload. Testing the resulting rounds revealed all 5 cases that would not chamber upside down before resizing also failed to fit the case gauge after loading. The other 5 chambered just fine.

My conclusion is that some cases are deformed at the lower part of the case which does not get re-sized by the RCBS die. I am now saving them in the hope I can run through the Lee Factory Die in a batch.

Thanks again to everyone.... Now I have to wait for Midways back-order!
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  #14  
Old 05-03-2009, 07:34 PM
partsproduction partsproduction is offline
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I have the same setup you have, auto indexing, and have had the Lock Out Die catch many cases with no powder, and a few with a double charge.

Granted, I depend on it to catch them, while many say just use your eyes. I can't argue with that beyond saying that I trust mechanical devices when production rates are high. My shop is filled with CNC machines that operate automatically, and therefore I've learned to trust failsafe devices, both electronic and mechanical.
My pastor uses a Dillon, and told me that he quit using the Lock Out Die. I don't know if he looks in every case.
I have no argument with anyone who does it differently than I do, but I'm just saying that for me the Lock Out Die has taken the error factor out of loading for me, maybe not the next guy.

Walter has a point in saying that with an auto indexing machine it shouldn't matter, the charge shouldn't change and there is no forgetting what a mechanism does for you, but all my "Catches" have been because of the occasional hangup of one kind or another that changes the flow of the repetitive actions, a split case that I missed but that made it to station #2 and was spotted then, or a broken depriming pin. For me, stopping to fix a hangup has been a time for accidents that the LOD has caught. Not disagreeing, just a different method that works for me.
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  #15  
Old 05-03-2009, 08:40 PM
PROGUN PROGUN is offline
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brumey--Even useing the FCD you are going to find that a case will not fit in the case gauge like it should. I find some drop right in, others only to the case head, some only 3/4 in. I am not picky about what brass I pick-up at the range(execpt A-MERC) and have not had but a very few FTF out of many thousands shot. It don`t have to fit in the gauge perfectly to fuction.
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  #16  
Old 05-03-2009, 09:04 PM
icecold icecold is offline
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"My pastor uses a Dillon, and told me that he quit using the Lock Out Die. I don't know if he looks in every case. "

i'd agree he likely dosent need one

i have never used a powder check die,and still have never had a problem but all my machines auto index.
i also watch what is going on very closely

as for the lee fcd i have had great results in 45acp with one but then again i never remember all that many problems without one
pete
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  #17  
Old 05-04-2009, 08:37 AM
Jonah Jonah is offline
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Pro 2000

brumey;
I have loaded in excess of 60000 rounds on my Pro 2000 so can provide some help. Mostly I load .45 Colt, but also load .38 spl, .357, .45 acp, .38-55 & .45-70 on the Pro 2000.

Progun's post about the level of powder in the case and putting his finger over the case mouth are both helpful. However; we shouldn't have to do that.

1st, make sure the press is securely mounted and not vibrating during use.

2nd, the short cases like .45 acp, etc. will allow powder to shake out like you have found. The indexing is aggressive and you are right about trying to turn it slowly. Also, if the case is hard to pull off of the expander, it may jar the press enough to shake out powder. With the .45 acp, and I don't load a large quainty of them, I have started to run the shells through in two batches. I first size and expand and seat primers. I load powder outside the press, place a bullet in the case mouth and then with just the seat and taper crimp dies in the press run the shells through to finish up. Not the best solution, but it works well. If I loaded more short cartridges on this press, I'd spend more time and somehow solve the problem.

There is a way to size, expand, drop powder, use lock out die, seat the bullet and taper crimp all in the same setup. Dillon and Lee have been doing it for many years. Hornady has also started doing it. I approached RCBS several years ago to provide the expander capability in the Uniflow powder measure. Why RCBS hasn't done it is a good question. Hornady uses almost the identical type powder measure and has provided that ability. I made my own Uniflow drop tubes, I have a lathe, that use the Lyman Multi Expand Powder Charge Die screw in tips and this setup allows me to expand and drop the powder in the same location on the press. Since RCBS won't make this part, you could buy Hornady's powder measure and then it will work. My setup is station 1-size & decap, station 2 expand & drop powder, station 3-lockout die or powder check die, station 4-seat bullet, station 5-taper or roll crimp.
Since I prefer manual index and wanted a 5 station progressive, I chose the Pro 2000 over the Dillon 650. If I were buying another progressive, I would still buy the RCBS. If you contack RCBS and they give you any good solution, be sure to share it with all of us.
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  #18  
Old 05-04-2009, 09:59 AM
WalterGC WalterGC is offline
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RCBS presses run backwards!
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  #19  
Old 05-06-2009, 02:32 PM
Ceemack Ceemack is offline
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Yeah, but the green paint doesn't have the same side effects as the blue stuff Dillon uses.
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