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  #1  
Old 12-11-2008, 09:14 AM
TXPO710 TXPO710 is offline
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45 ACP in 45 LC




Anybody got any info on shooting 45 ACP with moon clips in a 45 LC? pluses/minuses, any problems, what you might loose? Thanks,
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  #2  
Old 12-11-2008, 11:17 AM
Jim Watson Jim Watson is online now
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The gun has to be modified, clearance cut on the rear face of the cylinder for the thickness of the clips. $80 at Pinnacle
http://www.pinnacle-guns.com/revolver.asp
There are others, Wild West Guns in Alaska and Clarks, that I can think of.

I would worry about the long jump of the ACP bullet through the LC chamber but have read people to say theirs shot well.

I do NOT have one, have NOT shot one, and cannot actually recommend the job. Just know it is possible.
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  #3  
Old 12-11-2008, 11:21 AM
Randall M Randall M is online now
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There's a S&W 25 with both cylinders, for .45 Colt and
.45 ACP on Gunbroker for $2100 for some fool to bid on...

Randall
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  #4  
Old 12-11-2008, 12:38 PM
bigb00mer bigb00mer is offline
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ruger blackhawks can be bought with both cylinders and are tough as nails
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  #5  
Old 12-11-2008, 04:14 PM
molonlabe28 molonlabe28 is offline
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I plan to pick up a used Freedom Arms in 454 Casull (at a good price) and send it to Freedom Arms to be fitted with a 45 ACP cylinder.

I have the Ruger Bisley Blackhawk in both cylinders.
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  #6  
Old 12-11-2008, 07:16 PM
regionrat regionrat is offline
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I picked up a Colt SAA in .45 lc with a factory cylinder in .45 acp last summer for $1200. I heard they were a special run.
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  #7  
Old 12-13-2008, 05:59 PM
GT40DOC GT40DOC is offline
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I own a Taurus Mod. 450 in 45LC, which will shoot 45ACP with their "stellar" clips(they don't call them moon clips). It will also shoot 45 Auto Rim, 45Gap, and 45 Schonfield(sp?). It is a Ti frame and a great weapon. If I can find another, I will grab it up.
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  #8  
Old 12-15-2008, 04:49 PM
dakota1911 dakota1911 is offline
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I also have a Bisley Blackhawk with both cylinders, and it does well with .45 ACP in addition to LC.

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  #9  
Old 12-16-2008, 12:11 PM
TXPO710 TXPO710 is offline
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I just took the plung. S&W 25-5. I'm still trying to decide if I want to send it off for the conversion to moon clips or if it's even worth it. No second cylinder options. What do ya'll think? I carry a 1911 as my duty gun and have a lot of 45ACP stocked up, so what I'm thinking is to not have to stock up on another caliber for target practice. Opinions?
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  #10  
Old 12-16-2008, 07:57 PM
pdp pdp is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TXPO710 View Post
Anybody got any info on shooting 45 ACP with moon clips in a 45 LC? pluses/minuses, any problems, what you might loose? Thanks,

Those Revolvers chambering the .45 ACP, have a larger space between the rear of the Cylinder and the Frame, than do those chambering the .45 LC Cartridge.


Probably, most .45 ACP Cylinders are stepped in their Bores, for locating the ACP Cartridge by it's front Case rim, in the event of a user not employing the Moon or other clips, thus preventing a .45 LC Cartridge from having room lengthwise, to fit.

I understand some Cylinders at times have used a graduated taper occuring roughly where an ACP C'tg would end, instead.


Some early Colt .45 ACP Revolvers, had Cylinders allowing either round, as mine does. Or, people sometimes re-bored the ACP Cylinders, to remove he 'step' and allow the Long Colt Ctg to fit...even if probably inviting some small reduction in accuracy for the ACP rounds then, owing to their brief travel to the forcing one having then a little larger diameter to potentially misalign in, than would be ideal.


And, the .45 LC gets along fine with ample Headspace of the .45 ACP Revolver's arrange...so...


Probably, one could shorten an otherwise .45 LC Cylinder at it's rear, modify the guide-button on the Frame's lower under-the-Cylinder area which governs the Cylinder's position or play when swung out, and, be alright then to use either Cartridge.


.45 ACP in the Full Moon Clip is certainly more elegant than a Speed Loader.

Last edited by pdp; 12-16-2008 at 08:01 PM.
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  #11  
Old 12-24-2008, 01:49 AM
Aklon Aklon is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TXPO710 View Post
I just took the plung. S&W 25-5. I'm still trying to decide if I want to send it off for the conversion to moon clips or if it's even worth it. No second cylinder options. What do ya'll think? I carry a 1911 as my duty gun and have a lot of 45ACP stocked up, so what I'm thinking is to not have to stock up on another caliber for target practice. Opinions?
Don't do it! The S&W 25-5 is a superlative firearm capable of exquisite accuracy. Those cowboy loads are nice, but if you reload, the Model 25 will prove to be a great joy.

I shoot Speer 260 gr. JHP over 12.95 grs. of Blue Dot in Hornady brass with WLP primers; try it just once and there's no way you'll convert or modify this revolver to anything other than what it is.

Better you should buy one of those Smiths already set up to fire .45 ACP.
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  #12  
Old 12-24-2008, 05:03 AM
pdp pdp is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TXPO710 View Post
I just took the plung. S&W 25-5. I'm still trying to decide if I want to send it off for the conversion to moon clips or if it's even worth it. No second cylinder options. What do ya'll think? I carry a 1911 as my duty gun and have a lot of 45ACP stocked up, so what I'm thinking is to not have to stock up on another caliber for target practice. Opinions?



I agree with Aklon's mentions.


If no .45 ACP Cylinder can be ordered for this Pistol, maybe a .44 Spcecial Cylinder can be ordered, and, an able Gun Smith could modify and re-bore with the step, for chambering the .45 ACP and to have the right rear clearance and so on.


Talk to some good Smiths first, see what they say.



Phil
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  #13  
Old 12-24-2008, 09:11 AM
superc superc is offline
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Aklon is more or less correct. [My own S&W M-25 was a bullet sprayer till I put in a properly throated cylinder.]

Specifically, if you modify a revolvers cylinder at the rear face to accept the half moon clip, then when using standard .45 LC cartridges the rear of the cartridge will be so far away from the firing pin that a click will most probably be the only result from pulling the trigger. If however you pointed the gun up at the sky to move the cartridge rearward, then pulled the trigger, the instant the primer went off you would have a really unsafe condition as the rear wall of the cartridge would be outside the chamber and a rupture would be very possible. Note that on the original 1917 revolvers the cylinder is shortened on the front face too and the barrel protrudes further back into the frame well. This is to prevent someone from making that mistake. In 1917 the Army still had some stocks of 1909 .45 LC ammo and desired to avoid an error that could blind someone to the side of the shooter, and also wreck the gun.
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  #14  
Old 12-24-2008, 08:46 PM
pdp pdp is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by superc View Post
Aklon is more or less correct. [My own S&W M-25 was a bullet sprayer till I put in a properly throated cylinder.]

Specifically, if you modify a revolvers cylinder at the rear face to accept the half moon clip, then when using standard .45 LC cartridges the rear of the cartridge will be so far away from the firing pin that a click will most probably be the only result from pulling the trigger. If however you pointed the gun up at the sky to move the cartridge rearward, then pulled the trigger, the instant the primer went off you would have a really unsafe condition as the rear wall of the cartridge would be outside the chamber and a rupture would be very possible. Note that on the original 1917 revolvers the cylinder is shortened on the front face too and the barrel protrudes further back into the frame well. This is to prevent someone from making that mistake. In 1917 the Army still had some stocks of 1909 .45 LC ammo and desired to avoid an error that could blind someone to the side of the shooter, and also wreck the gun.


Hi superc,



One might reasonably think so, but in practice, so long as the .45 LC Cartridges are standard Loads, I do not expect any danger of Case rupture at the rear in the for-them over-generous Head Spacing in an otherwise correctly head-spaced for the .45 ACP Revolver, when able to chamber the LC Cartridge.


I've fired hundreds of rounds of both .45 LC and .45 ACP in one of my Model 1917 Colt New Service Revlovers which accepts either Cartridge, and never had a misfire or light Primer strike with the LC. Never seen any hint of 'bulge' at a Case base. All LC Primers always appeared to have received a sound strike with a good dimple.


Now, I'd certainly expect a reduction in accuracy, when shooting .45 ACP from a Cylinder which also accepts .45 LC, since the Bullet has to travel a little longer ways with Gas going around it, then having however so, to center itself and meet the forcing cone, along with what ever else, which in a 'snubby' would not matter, but in a Target Gun or Long Barrel, would matter, or would when it would, for accuracy over distance.


I have heard and have read, that some Model 1917 New Service came with Fatory Cylinders which accepted either Cartridge, but that this feature was discontinued early on, to be strictly .45 ACP instead...about as your mention.


So personally, yes indeed, I would definitely favor having two respective Cylinders for wishing to shoot both Cartridges in the same Revolver as the 'best' way to go...if one has any intention of ever shooting accurately over any distance with the .45 ACP.

Probably, the design of the Fireing Pin being part of the Hammer, reaching deeply with no problems, as it is with the 'New Service' alleviates the concern of the same Cylinder allowing a good smart strike for both Cartridges, even with over-generous head-space resulting for the LC, but on Revolvers of other make, their Firing Pins may not.


If it is a 'New Service', where the Firing Pin has no issues with reaching either Cartridge Primer well, or managing even with the LC being able to be at any pisition fore or aft in the space, and if it is a 'Snubby' or 'Belly Gun' - as mine is - then to me it would not matter if the Bullet wobbles a little and had Gas going past it as it finds it's way to the forcing cone.



But for a Revolver one wishes to be accurate over distance, I'd say, if no Factory Cylinder is available for the .45 ACP, then I'd expect an able Smith could rebore and modify a Cylinder of the next smaller Callibre, to be a perfect solution.



Phil

Last edited by pdp; 12-24-2008 at 08:58 PM.
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  #15  
Old 12-24-2008, 09:12 PM
superc superc is offline
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I think a lot of the safety depends on the load and the age of the brass. While I doubt anyone here would encounter it, for decades the big stumbling block in reloading .45 Colt was the brass. Specifically the early balloon head design. That stuff was weak and a rupture would almost certainly result using it. Now I agree that assuming anemic 'Cowboy' or light BP loads in new brass there is a greater margin of safety than with the older balloon head case design. That doesn't mean I would ever endorse or try firing .45 Colt brass in a cylinder set up for use with half moon clips. The pressures should be retained by steel walls and the brass case, not just one of the two. As a matter of fact, I suspect that even with a BP load of 40 gr. of fff under a 250 gr. slug, the sloppy headspace, the pressures, and unsupported brass protruding out of the chamber rear would sooner or later, cause a problem.

A few years ago Gun Digest had an article on converting a S&W 1917 to a dual cylinder gun. If my memory is correct, they started with a Model 27 .357 cylinder and had it bored out.


Below are some of the .45s I play with. The one with the stag grips is a 4 digit serial # and is therefore for BP only.
Attached Thumbnails
group2.jpg  
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  #16  
Old 12-24-2008, 10:30 PM
pdp pdp is offline
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Hi superc,




Ooooooo...what a nice Stable..!


All .45s then? Or..?


Yes...the old 'Balloon Head' Shells would be well worth pausing about...especially if re-loading in Smokeless...or regardlesss, Lol.


Ohhhhhhh, golly, everything depends on details, protocols, and rightly so..!



I have two .45 ACP Revolvers, both Model 1917 Colt 'New Service'.


One, a very well preserved unaltered and barely ever fired original, the other, a modified one made into a 'Snubby'. Both early to mid 1918 production.


They are a joy, as you know.


I really like the Full Moon Clips, so much more elegant than a Speed-Loader...and the arrange of the Cartridges set up in the 'clip', looks good just sitting there.


I've often thought Colt and S & W should have offered other Revolvers, and on smaller frames, for the .38 Autocolt and later, the .38 Super Cartridges years and years ago, and for chambering via the Full Moon type Clip, the .30 Mauser and Luger 9 mm Cartridges also.


They could have been doing this in 1920 and it would have been a very cool thing to have done.


I have brooded on a project which would be an example of what they could-have, should-have done, with one of these other rounds Revolver wise in 1920 or so.




Phil
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  #17  
Old 12-25-2008, 02:18 PM
superc superc is offline
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Yes, they are all .45s in the photo above. The two at the bottom stock models in ACP, while the three above are in Long Colt (as is the one below). I have been trying without success to find a fiber optic blade (orange or green) for use on the Shooting Master, but no one makes one of that height (yet).

Well, Prohibition era gangsters and police were in 100% agreement with you and by the end of the 1930s so was a guy named John Henry 'Fitz' Fitzgerald at Colt. Many of the early gangsters of the Prohibition era had chopped down 1917s, and so did some early police detectives. Over at Colt one of their employees, Fitz, learned of them and caused to be modified as snubs many New Service revolvers. I really believe that if Fitz hadn't been killed off by the Nazis while trying to set up a Colt plant in Britain, Colt would still have New Service Colts, as he was their biggest proponent at Colt and would have never allowed the NS machinery to just rust away outdoors as Colt did.

I recently got to handle one of the rare Battle of Britain (a shipment that accompanied Fitz to Britain) New Service guns. A lovely fixed sight specimen (rarely fired, judging by the marks) in 4", chambered for .357 magnum, parkerized, lanyard looped and with all the appropriate proof marks, including the Broad Arrow acceptance mark. The man wanted $1,500 for it at a show, but I was about $200 short. Someone else got it before I could find an ATM. Sigh.

You will never convince me that something like that, or a Shooting Master variant, wouldn't have edged out the S&W Model 28s in law enforcement circles, if it had still been available after WWII. [S&W still doesn't get it, and is as stuck in a rut as are the Detroit car companies with their oversized SUVs and pickups marketed for commuters.] I have never understood why S&W wouldn't (won't) make a fixed sight 4" .45 Colt. The closest they ever came was their model 57 and their distribution of even that was minimal at best. S&W has forgotten their roots and believes revolvers are basically dead and just make a few over specialized models. I think if Fitz had survived the war, then we well might have seen 5 shot .45s on a round butted Colt's OP frame with 2 or 3 inch barrels.

Just for fun, my other BP .45 Colt. The hammer broke long before I found it rotting away in a pawn shop with springs and small parts missing. Repaired, with all internal parts replaced, it works just fine.

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  #18  
Old 12-25-2008, 02:49 PM
ACP Shooter ACP Shooter is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Watson View Post
The gun has to be modified, clearance cut on the rear face of the cylinder for the thickness of the clips. $80 at Pinnacle
http://www.pinnacle-guns.com/revolver.asp
There are others, Wild West Guns in Alaska and Clarks, that I can think of.

I would worry about the long jump of the ACP bullet through the LC chamber but have read people to say theirs shot well.

I do NOT have one, have NOT shot one, and cannot actually recommend the job. Just know it is possible.
I had the modification done to my 45LC mountain gun and it worked out fine. Pinnacle did it. You only need to send in the cylinder and crane if I remember right, which means you can avoid overnight charges.
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  #19  
Old 12-25-2008, 03:18 PM
slopemeno slopemeno is offline
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A friend of mine who was a very skilled machinist did the conversion to a .45 Colt Model 25 of his, and it worked perfectly.
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  #20  
Old 12-25-2008, 05:16 PM
kimberguy2004 kimberguy2004 is offline
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I had the moon clip conversion done on my 625 Classic.45LC and it's supurb. You can still shoot it without clips with zero issues. You can still use any load that you can shoot safely in any S&W revolver. You can't shoot the Ruger or FA loads in it but you couldn't do that anyway. The same cylinder can also be machined for .45ACP moonclips and that will allow you to shoot either cartridge in the same gun. I chose not to do that because I already have .45ACP revolvers and don't need another. My concern with doing the "daily double" is not so much with accuracy, but with the buildup of lead at the cylinder throats, just as you would get shooting .45LC in a .454. I did mine because my 625 is a bowling pin gun. There's no mechanical or safety related issue that would prevent doing it. Actually, it's kinda cool..
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