1911Forum
Forum   Reviews   Rules   Legal   Site Supporters & Donations   Advertise


Go Back   1911Forum > Applications > Tactics & Personal Defense


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #26  
Old 10-30-2005, 10:33 AM
Greyson Greyson is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 9,377



To address the .380 question the poster originally asked:

In my humble experience the .380 has not proven itself to be a reliable
round. In both stopping power and function. It seems that no matter
what make of .380 I run across, the gun jams. Admittedly I haven't seen
the SIG .380 and would hope that their works well.

As for stopping power here is a story that I will share. My good friend
who is a lurker on this board had a raccoon problem one day in his garage.
Went in and grabbed a .380 thinking this was a good choice to avoid
over penetration and serious damage to property. Long story short:
FIVE shots into raccoon at about 8 feet. It was obviously mortally wounded,
but it was in no way "put-down". Lesson learned and all .380s sold.

Among my group of friends, we all feel that the .380 isn't a caliber to
aspire to. It is a choice of last resort. I.E. A backup gun or a choice due to
size or a personal physical handicap. But even then
we would prefer another caliber.

Regards,
Greyson
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 10-30-2005, 04:16 PM
Japle Japle is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 603
As others have said, all things being equal. I'd rather have a 9mm or .45, but.......

There are times when carrying a gun even as small as a micro-Glock is impractical. Not impossible, but impractical. If I'm working in the yard or BBQing with the neighbors in the summer, a cover garment doesn't make sense. I can have my P3AT in the front pocket of my cargo shorts and no one's the wiser. The smallest 9mm is too big for someone my size.

My .380 is usually caried as a BUG, but the point is, it's ALWAYS THERE!
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 10-30-2005, 07:50 PM
Glendive Glendive is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 39
I've got a sig 230 that i carry as a backup on duty. I got the gun for a steal and it's pretty easy to shoot. Someday i'll get something bigger. The one thing i like about the 230 is the barrel is fixed, you can jam it against somebody and trigger off a burst and it won't jam. I have no idea how reliable other 380s are, this is the first one, and the only one i've shot.
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 10-30-2005, 08:56 PM
unforgiven5150 unforgiven5150 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Age: 39
Posts: 273
Much Appreciated

Thanks for the all info guys (and gals if there are any lurking). I actually decided and went with a HK USP .40 Compact. I found a "used" one at my gun club for a great price with 3 mags. I say "used" as the barrel and inner slide didn't even look as though it had been fired. Some wear on the outer slide so I'm guessing it was a dealer or rep demo and only put in and out of holsters.

I actually liked shooting the .40 quite a bit. It was a bit different to get used to, but after the 1st or 2nd mag, I was shooting it almost as well as my Sig 226 9mm. I'm not sure what variant I got, but it has the "flat" hammer, DA/SA with the safety/decocker on the left. I like the fact I can carry it "cocked and locked".

Very happy with my purchase. May buy a .380 at some point just for a different gun.

Again, thanks for all the opinions and stories. They did help with my decision.
__________________
I would rather be tried by twelve, than carried by six
Beretta 92F - Kimber Pro Tactical - AZ Armory AR-15 SBR - Cave Arms homebuild "Recce" - Mossberg 500
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 10-30-2005, 11:48 PM
Str8_Shot Str8_Shot is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Silverdale, Wa
Posts: 2,545
Unforgiven

Congratulations on your purchase, HK makes a fine weapon.

Now getting back to your question, allow me to add a small suggestion to the very good information you have received. When considering a .380 pistol size matters and in many cases it is possible to get a pistol that is too small for you. So I suggest that you shoot any pistol you are interested before buying, because in my experience as pistols get smaller, the caliber probably should also, and the human interface become really improtant.

The first thing to consider is the human interface and finding out how the pistol works for you. One post above noted getting hands scraped by the slide of a SIG 230/232, in my case the slide will rotate the pistol in my hand about 45 degrees to the left. In the case of some small pistols, like the Mustang (I really like these), unless I have larger grips or hold the pistol very tight, it will float in the fleshy parts of the hand and accuaracy suffers. Last is how does the firing impulse feel in your hand? As noted above most .380 pistols are blow back designs and your hand will take the brunt of the force and it can affect your ability to shoot well in practice.

The second thing is the choice of caliber. If any of us have spent any time in the forums we have seen several posts about ultra small 1911s having reliability issues. This really should be expected since as the manufacturer makes the pistol smaller relative to the round it is intended for and its service size, the parts have to be closer to perfect or timing suffers and so does reliability. making the round shorter and moving it forward a little helps timing the slide and can aid reliability. Though smaller calibers do lose performance compared to larger calibers, or the same caliber fired from a larger pistol. Large has it advantages.

So is a .380 a good choice for concealed carry? As noted above the answer is, "It depends." Though when I am asked why I carry my Mustang, one of my more common replies is, "This is the gun I carry when I don't think I need to carry a gun." The Mustang is small enough to carry in a pants pocket, a coat pocket, in the waist band, or most anyplace, all day. With my build, and the holsters I have tried, I can't say that about anything larger than a J-Frame revolver.
__________________
Str8_Shot

The best handgun for self defense is the one you have with you. . . . . .
. . . . . . . . What you left at home does not count.
Reply With Quote
  #31  
Old 10-31-2005, 05:32 AM
JeffVN JeffVN is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Age: 56
Posts: 721
I have an acquiantance (Rocky Carroll - the custom boot maker to the Stars - living in Houston, Texas) who was nearly killed 3 years ago by three bad-guys who wanted to rob him. They crushed his pelvis and nearly severed his left leg when they pinned him to a wall with the front driver's side of their car. He had left his .45 in his car (which was only 10 feet away), but had his Walther PPK .380 pocket auto in his pants pocket (he still carries it there by the way).

Before passing out, Rocky (a former Harris County Sheriff deputy) shot the driver twice in the head from approximately 6 feet away (round #1 punched a hole in the scalp between his eyes and ran around his skull and out the back of his head; round two penetrated the skin on the side of his head and ran around the skull to the back and out), and the passenger twice in the chest (one went between the ribs and hit his lung; the other hit the rib and bounced around under the skin). NONE of the bad guys died, despite good hits from less than 10 feet with a .380.

The lesson that I learned from Rocky's mis-adventure - even from 6 feet a .380 may not penetrate the skull and kill your bad guy. I carry either a full-sze colt .45, or a Commander, nothing smaller.

JeffVN

here is the link to one of the story's about the robbery - go about 2/3 of the way down the page

http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache...+houston&hl=en
Reply With Quote
  #32  
Old 10-31-2005, 06:23 AM
tpdtom tpdtom is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Michigan
Posts: 997
Wow !!!! Now that permanently answers the question for me I guess , not that I ever thought it was a fit caliber for defense...Tom
__________________
"One loves to possess arms, though they hope never to have occasion for them."
Thomas Jefferson (1743-1826), letter to George Washington, June 19, 1796
Reply With Quote
  #33  
Old 10-31-2005, 06:42 AM
shane45-1911 shane45-1911 is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Canada
Posts: 14,951
Quote:
Originally Posted by tpdtom
not that I ever thought it was a fit caliber for defense...
Folks, just remember that NO caliber shot from a handgun is ideally fit for defense. There are no "death ray" pistols out there, and sometimes even shot placement is not enough.

Just don't assume that a .45 (or your chosen caliber ammo) may perform remarkably better than the .380 in the Rocky Carroll story - because it may not.

All things being equal, a .45 is better than a .380 - and sometimes it still won't be enough.

Last edited by shane45-1911; 10-31-2005 at 01:37 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #34  
Old 10-31-2005, 07:55 AM
My_Name My_Name is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 586
My .02 (I haven't read all the replies)

A .380 is better than nothing, but we now have so many options for small 9mm, 45, 40S&W, etc. that are the same size or smaller than most 380s... why bother?

Yes, shot placement is key, and yes I have ventured into our ugly world with nothing more than my Beretta Tomcat (32ACP) and a lockblade, but I keep telling myself I need to get a more potent cartridge (have my eye on the Taurus Titanium 357 snub 650). I bought the Tomcat when it first came out ~1997 and the micro-sized 9mms, etc. weren't out yet.

I guess what I am trying to say... is that 380 is an okay caliber. And if you are looking to spend the kind of money it takes to buy a Sig, you can afford most of the other options on the market.

That said... let's not forget handguns are *defensive* weapons and even the most stout 44Mag is not a guarantee that the perp will stop his attack.
Reply With Quote
  #35  
Old 10-31-2005, 11:01 AM
unforgiven5150 unforgiven5150 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Age: 39
Posts: 273
What does "blowback" mean?

I guess I am confused. I thought all semiautos were blowback. Mean the recoil blew the slide back to eject the spent casing and the recoil spring brought it forward to grab the new round and put it back into battery.
__________________
I would rather be tried by twelve, than carried by six
Beretta 92F - Kimber Pro Tactical - AZ Armory AR-15 SBR - Cave Arms homebuild "Recce" - Mossberg 500
Reply With Quote
  #36  
Old 10-31-2005, 11:07 AM
vandal vandal is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Posts: 567
My understanding is that blowback means only the recoil spring and weight of the slide needs to be overcome by the recoil.

Everything else has some kind of locking mechanism that needs to unlock in addition to the above. A 1911 barrel locks up with the slide and needs to tilt down before the slide can move... etc.
Reply With Quote
  #37  
Old 11-05-2005, 07:33 PM
Cliff Burke Cliff Burke is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Florida
Posts: 91
I carry a .380 S&W PPK in hot weather and a 1911 S&W in cooler weather. A co worker of mine took out two bad guys permanently with a .380 PPKS during drug buys gone bad.
Reply With Quote
  #38  
Old 11-05-2005, 08:48 PM
gunfighter45 gunfighter45 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: East TN
Age: 48
Posts: 1,159
Amen! I believe it was Clint Smith that said that a carry gun should be comforting, not necessarily comfortable.
__________________
ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒE
Thunder Ranch THG & UR(x2), Gunsite 250C
Yavapai Firearms Academy HG1(x2), HG2, & SG, NRA Life Member
Reply With Quote
  #39  
Old 11-05-2005, 08:51 PM
david1911 david1911 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Homewood, AL
Age: 58
Posts: 73
Couple of options

I have a S&W 99c in 9mm, it is a light fairly compact 9mm that holds 10+1...very reliable.

I have also had good experience with a 9mm PM9, read the Kahr forum...lots of mixed reviws and unhappy people there, but mine has proven reliable.

For .380, I sold my Sig 232...that was just too expensive a gun. For MUCH less you can get a used or new unfired Makarov in either .380 or 9mm Mak which is a bit more potent. It also holds 1 more round than a PPK/s or Sig. If you are lucky, there are Russian high cap maks out there, lots of 10 rounders, a few 12 round mags. My mak's (Bulgarian and russian) have reliable with out fail. Price range is 150 for milsurp to 300 for some newones...though I just got a new unfired commercial Bulgarian for 199

CZRAMI is a possible choice. VERY reliable, built on the CZ75 frame. It is the heaviest gun amoung the ones I have listed. It initialy came with a 9mm 10 round mag, after the law changed a 14 found mag came out with extended grip. My CZ's are another one of those guns that have performed without fail

david1911
Reply With Quote
  #40  
Old 11-07-2005, 12:05 AM
michael t michael t is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: outback Ky
Age: 68
Posts: 1,192
but had his Walther PPK .380 pocket auto in his pants pocket (he still carries it there by the way).

Before passing out, Rocky (a former Harris County Sheriff deputy) shot the driver twice in the head from approximately 6 feet away (round #1 punched a hole in the scalp between his eyes and ran around his skull and out the back of his head; round two penetrated the skin on the side of his head and ran around the skull to the back and out), and the passenger twice in the chest (one went between the ribs and hit his lung; the other hit the rib and bounced around under the skin). NONE of the bad guys died, despite good hits from less than 10 feet with a .380.

The lesson that I learned from Rocky's mis-adventure - even from 6 feet a .380 may not penetrate the skull and kill your bad guy. I carry either a full-sze colt .45, or a Commander, nothing smaller.

JeffVN

Well let see he still carrys his PPK today. So he must have faith in the weapon and caliber. Also from the discription of the rounds I would say he was using ball ammo.
In 1970 's I went on a call were store clerk had been shot in face point blank during a robbery. Bullet deflected and traveled around skull as you describe Weapon 1911A1 45auto and 230 ball. Nothing is perfect. I carry a PPK/S or my Mustang 90% of the timeand don't feel unarmed
__________________
DW bobtail 1951 Colt Commander,1972 Colt Commander, ,2003 Colt Commander 1990 Colt Mustang American Classic II
http://bersachat.com Home of Bersa and http://www.americanclassic1911forum.com American Classic on the net.
Reply With Quote
  #41  
Old 11-08-2005, 04:01 AM
John 242 John 242 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Ardmore, OK
Age: 42
Posts: 731
Quote:
Originally Posted by michael t
Also from the discription of the rounds I would say he was using ball ammo.
In 1970 's I went on a call were store clerk had been shot in face point blank during a robbery. Bullet deflected and traveled around skull as you describe Weapon 1911A1 45auto and 230 ball. Nothing is perfect. I carry a PPK/S or my Mustang 90% of the timeand don't feel unarmed
Ever read "About Face" by David Hackworth? In it, he is shot in the forehead by a Chinese machine gun and the bullet travels under his scalp and exits out the back of his head. He drops his rifle and takes off running. No exactly a one shot stop. I will assume that this "machine gun" is firing a full size rifle cartidge such as 7.62x54R or simuliar high-powered rifle round.
Headshots are no guarantee, but if you take one, aim for the eye socket.
__________________
I'll think of something witty latter... Maybe.
Reply With Quote
  #42  
Old 12-22-2005, 08:56 AM
Chris S. Chris S. is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: California
Posts: 157
To answer the question, No. The .380 will not stop someone immediately, unless you get a decent head shot. Do yourself a favor and stay above .40 Cal. (.45 is better). If you don't and you ever need to pull your pistol, you will wish you had.
Reply With Quote
  #43  
Old 12-30-2005, 02:26 AM
Baron Baron is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 55
Let's not neglect to throw the ol' RBCD wrench into the works.

According to their site, their 45-gr. .380 round leaves the barrel at 1500 fps and has 283 ft/lbs of energy.

I've been told from several sources that RBCD is about the only way to make .380 a decent caliber. In my Mil-Spec, it's 230 gr. Gold Dot all the way - no need to fix something that ain't broke. But in something like my NAA Guardian .380, which is the size of (and therefore is as concealable as) most .25s, I'm willing to gamble on a round which some see as a bit of a wild card. For the record, it's very controllable.

Just figgered this thread wouldn't be complete without an opinion war over RBCD!

They're at www.rbcd.net .
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:25 AM.


NOTICE TO USERS OF THIS SITE: By continuing to use this site, you certify that you have read and agree to abide by the Legal Terms of Use. All information, data, text or other materials ("Content") posted to this site by any users are the sole responsibility of those users. 1911Forum does not guarantee the accuracy, integrity, or quality of such Content.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2014 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Copyright 2011 1911Forum.com, LLC. All Rights Reserved