Groupings at 25 yards

[RM]

I have seen many posts which discuss having shot 1 inch or perhaps 2 inch groups at 25 yards. Am I correct in assuming this is always done using a bench rest? Secondly, do expensive bench rests give better performance than inexpensive ones? And lastly, what kind of groups can a good shooter expect to make with a stock semi-auto from standing position at 25 yards? Thanks.

[Steelharp]

At 25 yards, I can say this with confidence; my groupings are all in my back yard. Thanks to my flinch, they're all in my lower left back yard, to be precise.

Mikey

[TREEMAN]

Originally Posted by Steelharp

At 25 yards, I can say this with confidence; my groupings are all in my back yard. Thanks to my flinch, they're all in my lower left back yard, to be precise.

Mikey

Hate that flinch...........

[Baer1911]

I'm sure everyone uses a rest of some sort when testing group sizes. I use three shot bags filled with sand.

An "average" shooter should be able to hold the black at 25 yards on a B-8 target. That would be 5.5 inch groups.

High Master level shooters can hold the 10 ring. That would be 3 inch groups.

Now if only I could call myself an "average" shooter.

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Matthew 24:6
"You will be hearing of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not frightened, for those things MUST take place...

[johnwill]

The day I can hold a 1" group at 25 yards offhand with a pistol will be a very happy day indeed!

[shane45-1911]

I've shot a 1" group offhand (5 rds. at 25 yds.) exactly three times in my whole life.

I would agree that 5" or less offhand at 25 yds. is suitable for most situations except Camp Perry.

[imashooter2]

I can't get 1 inch off sandbags! Hell, I have a hard time even seeing the target black while focused on the front sight.

I suppose the free pistol shooters at the Olympics are the best shots in the world. Does anyone know what sort of groups win there?

[SRF37]

It's easy to shoot 4-5 inch groups. I just refuse to see all those "fliers." Actually I'm happy to hold a paper plate at 25 yds. Some of the real masters at our club, though, are awesome! All black, all the time.

[gyp_c]

...I can state with complete confidence that I can shoot a 1" group everytime with my 4" Champion in 45 ACP...


...The problem comes in when I shoot more than a one-shot group!!!

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>>>>>>>>>>g2<< <<<<<<<<

!!!Molon Labe'!!!

[RANash]

To answer the original question: Yes, most of the time that people are talking about getting 1-2" groups at 25 yards is when testing their weapon for its accuracy, rather than their own shooting skill. Therefore, they use benchrests of some sort. An example would be the quarantees given by Wilson, Bauer, etc., of 1.5" at 25 yards for certain models. The guns are tested using a Ransom rest.

2nd question: Yes, an expensive device like a Ransom rest will give you better performance, but only if you know how to use it. A Ransom rest can take almost all the human factor out of an accuracy test. However, Ransom rests are devices that require a certain amount of practice with in order to get that degree of reliability. They're also quite expensive. That said, most of us will be quite happy with sandbags.

For that matter, to get good results with sandbags will take some practice.

The amount of difference between the test with a Ransom rest and the test with an experienced shooter using sandbags is not worth the amount of expense for the Ransom, in my opinion.

[rex]

I have to agree with RANash.Don't waste your money on anything elaborate.I use a rolled up towel on top of my shooting bag.Anything that will make you steady is good.If I can't shoot from a rest,locking down in a kneeling position can be very steady.The important thing is use the rest behind the wrist with handguns.BTW,a Ransom rest can actually shoot worse than the pistol's capability because the frame is being indexed to the target,not the barrel and sights.

[TangoRomeo]

Originally posted by rex:
I use a rolled up towel on top of my shooting bag.

It sure is great to know that I'm not the only one too cheap to buy honest-to-goodness sandbags! I've been using rolled up towels for years with pretty good results (for me anyway). Our club has owned a Ransom Rest and a pretty good selection of grip adapters for many years, but the thing almost never gets used. It's a nice piece of gear, but it seems like most folks don't want to fool with signing it out and setting it up.-TR

[h4444]

I guess it wouldn't count if I was shooting a scoped rifle.

[TangoRomeo]

Originally posted by h4444:
I guess it wouldn't count if I was shooting a scoped rifle.

Yeh, I guess we can count that. I get fairly decent groups at 25yds with most of my rifles. It's when I move out to 35yds that I get into trouble. But I can keep them all in the black at 35 if I use 1000yd targets!-TR

[rex]

Tango

Love the towel too,eh? Simplicity at work,like our favorite piece.Actually,why buy sandbags,etc. to do what we do for no added cost.Does this mean we're smarter than the average bear?

[George Smith]

Originally posted by imashooter2:

I suppose the free pistol shooters at the Olympics are the best shots in the world. Does anyone know what sort of groups win there?

Koenig and his bianchi gun has shot 6 into 5/8" at 50 prone, not a rest.

geo ><>

[TangoRomeo]

Gee Rex, I dunno. Could be smarter, but in my case, probably just cheaper!-TR

Originally posted by rex:
Does this mean we're smarter than the average bear?

[lejarretnoir]

I have a custom PPC .38 Spl revolver that will put 10 shots into 1/2" @ 25yds in a Ransom Rest. 148gr HBWC do it every time. Wish I could hold it offhand though.

[JOEE]

If i take my time i can keep'em all in the black shooting openhand. sandbag nice 2-3 shot groups (damm flyers)but my WILSON CQB compact from someone that knows how to shoot a real rest are in the 1" range.I do find my self smiling a lot more now they i've got the CQB.

[LAK]

There are plenty of pistols around that won't shoot 2 inches at 25 from a Ranson rest, let alone over bags.

[Baer1911]

Originally posted by George Smith:
Koenig and his bianchi gun has shot 6 into 5/8" at 50 prone, not a rest.

geo ><>

Would that be 50 feet or 50 yards?

If it's 50 yards I'll have to call you on that one. There isn't a semi-auto pistol made, nor could one be made that is that accurate. Your talking a six shot group size that is 0.174 larger then the bullet.

Out of a ransom rest, the world's best Bullseye pistolsmiths can only get 1 1/2 to 2 inch groups at 50 yards, and that's rare.

Out of a barrel fixture .45acp rounds can only get around 1 inch groups at 50 yards.



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Matthew 24:6
"You will be hearing of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not frightened, for those things MUST take place...

[JOEE]

BAER 1911, No flame meant but it's unwise to doubt GEORGE SMITH (EGW)

[Baer1911]

Originally posted by JOEE:
BAER 1911, No flame meant but it's unwise to doubt GEORGE SMITH (EGW)

Not realy. the statements I made here ...

"Out of a ransom rest, the world's best Bullseye pistolsmiths can only get 1 1/2 to 2 inch groups at 50 yards, and that's rare."

"Out of a barrel fixture .45acp rounds can only get around 1 inch groups at 50 yards."

... are proven facts from tests of some of the best 1911 pistolsmiths in the world.

I am at work right now, but when I get home I will post e-mails from two smiths that have done such tests. One inch groups from a barrel fixture are the best a .45acp can commonly do. It is next to impossible to do it with a pistol.

I should add that I'm measuring center to center groups. If you measure inside spread, then less than one inch groups are possible. But you are cheating yourself measuring inside spread.



[This message has been edited by Baer1911 (edited 10-19-2001).]

[Baer1911]

Near the bottom of this post is a quote from one of the best, (if not the best) M1911 pistolsmiths to ever lay hands on a pistol. He no longer builds pistols for the public as he has taken a job with a differant entity.

To understand the portion of his e-mail better, I will tell you that this smith and a different one had a little disagreement about results from accurized M1911's and the inherent accuracy of the .45acp cartridge.

One smith claimed his pistols could consistently shoot less then one inch groups at 50 yards. The smith I am quoting has tested many 1911 pistols and has tested the .45acp in a bolt action bench barrel. Groups that measure less then one inch at 50 yards are imposable with a M1911, and near imposable in a bench barrel.

To protect the privacy of both pistolsmiths, I will not reveal their names. I do not know if either one is a member of this forum. If they are they go by an alias because I have not seen them post here using their actual names. You have to take my word as a gentleman that this quote is authentic.

In 1979 and 1980 I worked full time testing*ammo and 45s at the USAMU. I leaned alot about how well ammo shoots in the guns and in the bolt action test barrel.*In the test barrel the*groups are rarely under one inch. In the 45s it is less common (like one every ten years). I think I told you that I didn't think that you could pick ten rounds out of a box that were capable of shooting under a inch at fifty yds.

So as you can see, your chances of getting struck by lightening are better then building a M1911 capable of 5/8 inch groups at 50 yards, or finding ammo that is capable of it.

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Matthew 24:6
"You will be hearing of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not frightened, for those things MUST take place...

[George Smith]

Originally posted by Baer1911:
Would that be 50 feet or 50 yards?

*yds.

If it's 50 yards I'll have to call you on that one.

*please do. I agree with you. please call anyone on anything that seems to be untrue.

There isn't a semi-auto pistol made, nor could one be made that is that accurate. Your talking a six shot group size that is 0.174 larger then the bullet.

* not exactly

Out of a ransom rest, the world's best Bullseye pistolsmiths can only get 1 1/2 to 2 inch groups at 50 yards, and that's rare.

*agreed, there are guns made by the brand in your post name that guarnt. 1 1/2 and you have to pay extra.

Out of a barrel fixture .45acp rounds can only get around 1 inch groups at 50 yards.

* I agree that sounds like a limiting factor.

The gun is an unusual gun.
before we built it we spent some time prepping. Doug purchased a barrel fixture. We had a gun that was shooting 1 1/2 at 50 and wanted to pull the barrel out and replace it. I said you know how many people would love to shoot 1 1/2? He didn't listen.

Than we were working on guns for the team Challenge and Tubbs had us fit a couple super barrels (cal not brand ) and he was testing with an 8 power scope. (the barrels are supose to be the "Best" what ever that means) well Tubbs said the scope had 1/2" of parallex at 50 yds and the guns shot 1 1/2 10 shot groups with this one load. BUT he asked this great question. Who says 1 1/2 is good?

so back to the fixture, Koenigs one match bianchi gun shoots 8 shots into 3/4 and two flyers out to 1 1/4 or 1 3/8. we weld up the barrel in every concievable place, and a couple trick ones and that is all we can get.
the Kool part was put the barrel in a test fixture and the barrel shoots 8 shots into 3/4 an 2 open it up to 1 1/4 so we were finding the limit.

So we short chamber some barrels, got some Ideas from Tubbs about what they are doing with rifle reamers and throats and diameters.
Ground the throats off some reamers and cut some new ones.

with 115 hollow points and the tight chamber and tighter shorter throat the best barrel shot 1/2" at 55 yds. (doug was using wind flags and keeping track of all he could think of) the next group from the same barrel was 1 1/4. the barrel we used in the gun shot 3/4"
ten shot groups at 55 yds. these are bianchi velocity loads which would be similar to bulleseys power loads. He is doing the Break in one shot clean one shot clean routine and all preppign the barrels for this.

The gun shoots under 3/4 at 50 yds getting ready for the cup on a consistant basis.
it is jacketed ammo 38 super case. we even had a 1/2" group size change just changing the primer brand.

lastly the gun is pretty unusual. The hand made bushing is mounted inside the shroud that the scope bolts on. the hood width and length are within .0002 and as the hood length loosens up to .002 the accuracy falls off to 1 1/2"

Now wonder if someone wants to build one for bulleseye?
geo ><>

Ps I have been told by several reliable people that a 45 will shoot like you say. 1" is it. even in a rifle. The really scary part is the groups we are getting are with flyers.
sometimes 6 shots are unreal. and the flyers take it out to 3/4 or 1" probably if someone was Really Really board, they would make some bench rest bullets and that would get interesting. "so how is your moa pistol shooting"