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  #1  
Old 02-10-2001, 07:52 PM
Redzone Redzone is offline
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Relics of the past




It is truely ashame that the 1911 has'nt been a GI pistol for 16 yrs. Yet all the people I know form the military look to them as a handgun god. It is the beancounters which messed this match up. GI standard issue M1, Grennades, ammo, 1911A1 WWII. M16, Grennades, ammo, 1911A1 Vietnam until 1985. Then a M9, what gives we needed more before but less now, please. Lets hear some stories or oppinions from you USGI folks. And nice to see all your prior inputs and posts. Colt 1911 forever is my opinion.
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  #2  
Old 02-10-2001, 08:06 PM
M1991A1 M1991A1 is offline
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Hey, well I'm unfortunately from the M9 generation of military service (ARMY '92-'99). Even though I like the Beretta M9, I absolutly LOVE the Colt M1911A1! I would feel much more at ease with my newer Colt M1991A1 than my Beretta M9. There's just something about the history and legacy and proof of gettin' the job done. I admit the Beretta hasn't been around as long, but then again neither has much else on the current market. When any other pistol can last as long as the 1911 and still be a viable service handgun, then they can brag about how bad they are.

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"They all fall to hardball!"
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  #3  
Old 02-10-2001, 09:24 PM
Redzone Redzone is offline
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I agree with you M1991A1 but the 1911 Colt won't be gone anytime soon. It is the softest recoil to hitting power of all time. Many know this, some don't care, others ignore this. But you and I know it is the best close combat ammo and firearm past or present. Thanks for the input.
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  #4  
Old 02-10-2001, 09:35 PM
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I can see why the military switched to the M9, but my own preference will always be for an M1911A1. Half-trained soldiers are better off with the Beretta to be sure, yet I can't get over how even with all those safety devices the prescribed carry mode is STILL with an empty chamber! So I think many of you can see as I do why the military uses the Beretta. More US soldiers were killed in operational mishaps than by enemy fire during the Gulf War, so yes give them all the Beretta! Apologies to those of you here who come from the service and actually DO know which end of a gun to hold! I'll bet you learned before you went in, not during.
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  #5  
Old 02-11-2001, 12:01 AM
M1991A1 M1991A1 is offline
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Hey dsk, your right, I did learn how to use the M9 and M1911 before I went in. There are some pretty sad soldiers in our military nowadays. I'm sure its not that way in the Marines though! Unforuntely the M9 is safer for "today's" soldiers. If we HAVE to use the 9mm then I'd feel alot better off with a Glock 17 (no flames please). But you can give me a 1911 anyday!

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  #6  
Old 02-11-2001, 01:03 AM
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IMHO the best 9mm is the Glock 19. I'd rather have it than a Beretta anyday. But a 1911 beats either unless carrying concealed, in which case the G19 has the edge.

Regarding the military, my friend's nephew is in the Army Reserve and claims he's one of the better shots in his unit with the M9, and is working his way towards making Expert with it. Well, we went to the range a few months ago and I brought along one of my Colts and he brought his commercial Beretta. I just couldn't believe his ineptitude in handling his 9mm! He still acted unfamiliar with the controls, and his shots were all over the place. I've heard that receiving a medal or badge was a lot easier in todays army, but sheesh! I had to coach him on how to stop jerking, since it seems his drill instructor didn't teach him a damn thing. And yes he blamed it on his gun at first, at least until I took a crack at it and chewed out the target center at 7 yards.

[This message has been edited by dsk (edited 02-11-2001).]
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  #7  
Old 02-11-2001, 06:23 AM
Redzone Redzone is offline
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Sounds like your friend is a big talker and probably claims alot of things DSK. I've also met people like that. Here's a story from WWI. Many soldiers of the A.E.F.reached the front line without ever having fired a rifle. Many did not know how to load their weapons and, having emptied the loads placed in them by non-commisioned officers, were helpless, although carrying an ample supply of ammunition in their belts and bandoliers.
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  #8  
Old 02-12-2001, 01:16 AM
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I've known my friend's nephew since he was a child, and he's not one to brag. However it certainly appears that he's further from an Expert Badge than he thinks he is. Turns out one of the range officers is in his unit as well, and that night he was telling me what a good shot the nephew is. After seeing the evidence for myself I had to just shake my head. But you're right about one thing. When my dad was in the Army Air Corps right after WW2 he only handled a weapon once, an M1 Carbine. I don't recall him ever saying he actually fired it, even in training! I guess this is where the myth of the GI M1911A1 being less accurate than throwing rocks got started. It takes practice to learn to shoot a handgun well. If you're given a pistol and three mags, then told to fire at the target and that's it for your training, then you're certainly not going to get very far.
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  #9  
Old 02-12-2001, 07:35 AM
Grump Grump is offline
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My opinion based on 10 years in the Army and 13 in the Air Force is that for the average GI it doesn't make a hill of beans difference whether they are issued a 1911A1 or a M9. They don't need a pistol in the line of duty. I served as an MP & SP during my 23 years, the only MOS's that had an actual use for a hand gun but if you look at pictures from Viet Nam, you will see most of my brothers had a rifle or shotgun handy. As for the issue of carrying with the chamber empty I can not speak for the modern Army but the Air Force carries loaded and safety off! The trainers expect/demand that you treat the M9 just like a dbl action revolver for the first shot and all courses of fire for qualification start with a holstered dbl action first shot.
Knowing that shot placement is everything especially with ball ammo, I had no feelings of being under-armed with a 9mm. As a civilian my first love has always been for the 1911 but have felt well protected with the .38 spc revolver, 9mm Browning, .40 Glock, .44 spec M29, OR the .44-40 SAA that I have carried. Are current GI's bad pistol shots? Probably, but so are many of the civilian cops I've shot with.
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  #10  
Old 02-12-2001, 12:05 PM
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Changing the direction of this discussion here, I wonder if we will ever see surplus M9s released to the civilian market? Probably not, given the political climate. But has anybody heard if any actual military M9s filtered into civilian hands? Mr. Huntington Beach actually advertised a couple a few months ago. Given his reputation for fraud I really wonder.
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  #11  
Old 02-12-2001, 12:28 PM
Redzone Redzone is offline
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DSK here's another way to look at it. Most people in a long war of the world is afraid to remember. A 1911 is a big part. Would you want something which was strapped to the belt of your family and friends side when they died. History is an interesting thing when you view from a book or television. But try to put yourself there. It was scarry anywhere you went. My Grandfather told me the Japanese Americans were all arrested and accused of being spies after Pearl Harbor. German Nazi prisoners were held in Arizona. Much history tries to be forgoten by those involved, but lives in those who like to write.
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  #12  
Old 02-12-2001, 12:39 PM
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Grump I had to reply to your response. That is correct a sidearm is just that a sidearm. A rifle jamming is a dreaded experience for sure. The M16A1 had a problem here. Though thank god your 10 to 15 friends were still pounding away with theirs. A M1911A1, might as well heave rocks. The enemy does'nt come into 15yrds. and stand still. I am glad your here bro. Welcome all vets I appreciate you all. The 45ACP is the best at flesh destruction however. When that dreaded lucky shot counts.
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  #13  
Old 02-12-2001, 05:52 PM
M1991A1 M1991A1 is offline
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Hey dsk, I know there are original military M9s in civilian hands. Whether they are for sale or not I'm not sure. I wouldn't want to be caught with it unless it was legit. I know from my time in the Army that when a General retires he/she has the right to purchase their sidearm. There were also some released and sold through some marksmanship program the Army had something to do with. I wish I could remember what that group was but I do know it wasn't exactly like the CMP is with Garands, but similar. Also there were some stolen over the years. I know of people that "liberated" some during the return from the Gulf War. Of course I don't "exactly" know those details other than I'm not one of those people. I learned my lesson about theivin' when I was a youngun' the hard way! I wanted one at the time because of the same reasons I had my first '43 A1 but the guy wouldn't budge on it. Can't say I blame him, he felt guilty and wanted to offload it but he didn't have access to it at the time. I've had two different Beretta M9 Special Editions over the years. Thats close enough for me. Unfortunatly I had to trade my latest one for somethin' else.

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  #14  
Old 02-14-2001, 01:56 PM
Dogwhisperer5 Dogwhisperer5 is offline
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Near Phu Bai, Republic of South Viet Nam, August 1968. Heading back to the pick-up spot where the Hueys would get us the hell out of there, for that day anyway. I was "humpin' the 60" thru the elephant grass when automatic rifle fire opened up to my left front. In plain terms, I triped and went down on my face. I dropped the M60 in the process (it didn't really matter, the ammo was gone anyway). As I was getting up(I got as far as up on one knee) I saw movement to my left out of the corner of my eye. I knew anyone in that direction was not my friend! I pulled the M1911(not M1911A1. Yep, the old girl was still servin' 60 years later!) I was carrying in a issue shoulder holster, racked the slide, and opened up as I saw individual targets. I saw at least one go down then start to get back up. I shot at him again. I just kept shooting until the slide locked back. Then I ran!
To boil it all down- when we went back into the area the next day, there were 6 dead VC near where I found my M60. Each had a single torso shot, except for the one that had taken a hit to his AK47 magazine, and a second .45 slug under the left eye. I figure that was the one I shot at twice. The round that hit the magazine of his rifle must have stunned him enough that he fell down. He would have been better off to have stayed down for an 8 count!
Bottom line- 6 dead for 7 shots fired. Would the Beretta 9mm do as well? Maybe, but ever since that day 33 years ago I've had a special "closeness" to the M1911 and the .45ACP cartridge.
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  #15  
Old 02-14-2001, 04:44 PM
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Bummer, Dogwhisperer5. Had you gone 6 for 6 and had it been another place, another time you would have been hailed as the next Alvin York and been treated to a ticker-tape parade in your home town. Instead it was probably just as well that word never reached the college campuses back home, or else you would have had to explain why you "murdered six poor revolutionaries".

[This message has been edited by dsk (edited 02-14-2001).]
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  #16  
Old 02-14-2001, 05:05 PM
Redzone Redzone is offline
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Question Dogwhisperer5 why did your outfit return. You left that out, were there Americans to bring home? I went shooting in the desert today. I must admit I am a good shot with my National Match made in 1968. Maybe i'll clean it in a week or so. Also you had a rarity as 1911's were phased out I thought after Korea as 1911A1's were abundant.
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  #17  
Old 02-14-2001, 05:28 PM
M1991A1 M1991A1 is offline
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Dogwhisperer5....That reminds me of a story a friend of mine's dad told me once. He was with the 101st durin' his 18 months in country. He is still in the national guard as an E-8 where I served with him. He also carried the "pig" and not by choice. But at the same time he got to carry a 1911 since he couldn't pack a M16. At one time his platoon was told that for every confirmed KIA someone got they got one day R&R. Well, his story is kinda interestin'! See, he didn't exactly get his KIAs while in the field. One day, late evening, while back at their firebase he made a trip to the "outhouse". Wherever he went, that 1911A1 went with him, so you can guess he had more than toliet paper with him. As he was sittin' there doin' his business he heard some noise out by the outer perimeter wire. He leaned forward to see what it was and saw three VC tryin' to get through. Well, being occupied as he was, he just waited till they were a little closer and leaned forward, takin' care of them with three well place shots. Then he finished his business on the johnny. Three shots, three KIAs...from the crapper! Needless to say he got his three days R&R! But thats another story.....

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[This message has been edited by M1991A1 (edited 02-14-2001).]

[This message has been edited by M1991A1 (edited 02-14-2001).]
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Old 02-14-2001, 07:29 PM
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I find it very interesting that we have eighty-plus years' worth of anecdotal evidence (York, Cooper, Taylor, DW5, etc.) that the .45 ACP hardball round is an excellent one-shot stopper, as good as anything that can be held in one hand. We also have computer programs and police reports from the last twenty that seem to show it's rather iffy, maybe 60%. Which is it?
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  #19  
Old 02-14-2001, 07:46 PM
Redzone Redzone is offline
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I heard a story from an ex- Navy pilot friend of mine. That when the helocopters were lifting out of an overrun base one guy had a .357 and one a .45ACP. The .357 was fired 6 times at a hanger on hitting 4 times and they knocked his week but off. The .45 fired once knocking the hanger on 8 ft. off the chopper. This was related by a Vietnam E9 to my friend.
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  #20  
Old 02-21-2001, 02:17 PM
Ramjet Ramjet is offline
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My father is a executive with a major american company and travels all over the world.
He is always assigned security when overseas but this time he was in Mexico and now has two security guys assigned to him.
He's an old West Point guy and and owns a 1911 from those days.
While in Mexico, he asked his security guys why the had 1911's instead of the Taurus or Beretta they are usually issused?

Their answer was sort of funny.

The Beretta's and Taurus's fell apart when they beat people over the heads with them!The 1911 did not. It's not stopping power anymore guys! It's what makes the best hammer!
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  #21  
Old 02-21-2001, 04:52 PM
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RickB-

I think a lot of the differences of opinion are a result of combat conditions vs. street conditions. Mas Ayoob claims soldiers are easier to bring down than street thugs because they're war-weary and half-starved, but I feel just the opposite. Far from being war-weary, people on a battlefied are so adrenaline-charged from the sheer intensity of what's happening around them that they'll likely shrug off a small caliber wound unless it hits something that shuts them down for good. Street thugs on narcotics may be hard targets, but I don't think they're half as accoustomed to taking hits as a soldier who just watched half his buddies get chopped up into mincemeat and realizes he's next if he doesn't keep shooting back.
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  #22  
Old 02-22-2001, 07:56 PM
mdcalvert mdcalvert is offline
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We won't see any surplus/excess M9's.

I know that Beretta has been pestered to distraction with the question, "Can I buy a real M9?" The answer is, and always has been, no. However, in response to the interest, Beretta made 10,000 pistols that were ALMOST M9's. They had all of the military markings, but they had a regular "civilian" serial number, i.e., "BERxxxxxxx."

There is supposed to be a very FEW M9's that were handed out to high-level military pistol shooters for competitive purposes. I suspect the ones that stayed with the shooters were "lost" on the inventory.

It's true that General Grade Officers can elect to retain their carried pistol upon retirement. I think the modern practice is that they repay the government's cost of the pistol by a payroll deduction at retirement. In the old days, when Colt made the General Officer's pistol, the pistols became the personal property of the General.

Old story: I was at the DRMO at Ft. Belvoir, VA, in/about 1995, looking for armory tools. The property disposal techs showed me a cigar box full of sets of pistol grips that had been removed from General Officer pistols that had been turned in for destruction. The grips had been custom made by Colt and included pewter castings, ivory, and bone. Some pistol lover had been saving the grip panels for years, but they were all listed on the inventory. Like many firearms-related items, the grips were considered as non-disposable without prior "de-wat" destruction. Nobody wanted to see them cut up, so they just sat in the gigar box, in the cabinet, in the corner of the cage.

As for "real" M1911A1's the new Colt pistols will be about as close to being "real" as you will ever find. If you want "real old" M1911A1's you'll just have to fork over the really big bucks to get one in pristine condition. Me, I am placing my order for a new Colt "old faithful."



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  #23  
Old 02-22-2001, 08:50 PM
M1991A1 M1991A1 is offline
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I agree with what mdcalvert said. The competition shooters you were talkin' about are what I was refering to also. But I do have to correct one thing, the M9 Special Edition does not have a normal civilian SN. It is M9-00001-M9-10000. I assume thats the range. As I had two of them, the first one was an early production, the second one was M9-55XX, about half way through the production. They are identical in every way except the SN.

I'm also wanting one of those new 1911A1 reissues.

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  #24  
Old 02-22-2001, 11:16 PM
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The M9 I have pictured on my Website is an M9 Special Edition. I consider it close enough that my appetite for an M9 is whetted, especially given that there were nerver any rare variations produced and also the fact that any alloy gun in the military inventory is going to look trashed after a few years. Now, regarding the destroyed guns mdcalvert alluded to, that about makes me want to be sick!
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  #25  
Old 03-04-2001, 05:10 PM
7th Fleet 7th Fleet is offline
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I own a Colt 1911A-1 in brand new condition, it appears to be unfired. I bought from a lady back in 1975 who I worked with. It has the green hued parkerizing and brown plastic GI grips with lanyard loop on the arched mainspring housing. The gun has British proof marks. On the slide, barrel and reciever its stamped "Not English Make "and it's stamped "Released Britsh Govt. 1952 on the right dust cover.
I paid $165.00 for this old gun and the lady told me that her Uncle had brought it home from WW-2. He had kept it under his pillow for the rest of his life until he died. She was selling it for her Aunt who didn't want the gun. It is the finest original 1911A-1 that I have seen in many years.

7th

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[This message has been edited by 7th Fleet (edited 03-04-2001).]
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