1911Forum
Forum   Reviews   Rules   Legal   Site Supporters & Donations   Advertise


Go Back   1911Forum > Hardware & Accessories > Ammo Can


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 04-25-2012, 10:23 AM
mara5 mara5 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Western Iowa
Posts: 664
Over Penetration




I keep reading about concerns of over penetration. Personnally, I've never read of such an issue. Can anyone point out any confirmable data of someone being hit by an over penetration bullet. Better yet,any documented person being charged legally of shooting another thru over penetration?
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 04-25-2012, 10:28 AM
sechott sechott is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: WV
Posts: 1,967
Good question, subscribed.
__________________
Is there any hope for a person, who is brainwashed to the point of believing that bearing arms is responsible for a violent disposition in the human psyche? -me
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 04-25-2012, 11:33 AM
4XLT 4XLT is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Harrisburg/Hershey
Posts: 51
i think most of the worries of over penetration that are talked about are in a home defense situation where you could possibly injure a loved one in the home, ie: miss or flesh would someone and the round goes through a bedroom wall and hit your wife-kid-dog. that kinda thing
__________________
aim small, hit small
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 04-25-2012, 12:01 PM
Bigmant Bigmant is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Northern VA
Posts: 2,000
Quote:
Originally Posted by 4XLT View Post
i think most of the worries of over penetration that are talked about are in a home defense situation where you could possibly injure a loved one in the home, ie: miss or flesh would someone and the round goes through a bedroom wall and hit your wife-kid-dog. that kinda thing
+1 to this.

The problem arises more when you're in your home and you are worried about the bullet go through some guy and then through a wall and then into your neighbors bedroom. It depends on what kind of house you have. Mine is brick for instance so I think I'm relatively ok. But if you have wood sidings or something of the like you may have to think about it. Honestly though, if someone is in my house with a weapon of their own, the last thing I'll probably be worried about is if I'm about to shoot toward my neighbors house.
__________________
S&W 1911SC Performance Center, S&W 1911SC E series, Kimber Ultra Carry 2
NRA Member
"All you need for happiness is a good gun, a good horse, and a good wife." -Daniel Boone
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 04-25-2012, 12:37 PM
2gunpete 2gunpete is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 156
When ~90% of rounds fired completely miss the target in LEO and SD incidents, why is overpenetration a consideration? More accurate shooting will result in less deaths/injuries of bystanders. The .357 mag revolvers and 1911's are more accurate than polymer autos. Less capacity is needed with them.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 04-25-2012, 10:45 PM
Lovemea1911 Lovemea1911 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Age: 51
Posts: 977
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2gunpete View Post
When ~90% of rounds fired completely miss the target in LEO and SD incidents, why is overpenetration a consideration? More accurate shooting will result in less deaths/injuries of bystanders. The .357 mag revolvers and 1911's are more accurate than polymer autos. Less capacity is needed with them.
The newer polymers (less than 50 years old) are plenty accurate enough if the shooter knows how to shoot, especially in a tense situation. To suggest there are more hits from a revolver or a 1911 because it is more accurate than a polymer is...well...
__________________
Stop messin' with it and get a 1911.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 04-26-2012, 07:11 AM
richpetrone richpetrone is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Central Florida
Posts: 6,323
Understanding penetration

There are those that probably know a lot about "over penetration" so the following information may not be new and probably boring. The following is a general guideline about the penetration characteristics of ammunition.

The ballistic penetration of any ammunition is greatly affected by:

1) The hardness and diameter size of the bullet. Given the same velocity of a round and only changing the hardness and size of the bullet, the harder and smaller the bullet (diameter) the more the penetration.

2) The terminal velocity and mass of the bullet when it hits an object has a great effect on the penetration. The greater the velocity and the heavier the bullet weight (mass) at impact of soft animal tissue, the greater the chance of deeper penetration. Greater velocity and greater mass means more kinetic energy of the bullet. A bullet fired with a velocity of 1000 fps at impact may exhibit much greater penetration if the same load has only 500 fps at impact caused by the declining velocity at an extreme distance. Given the same bullet weight, and lowering the velocity means less kinetic energy transfer.

3) The density and the shape of the bullet has a great affect on the ability of a bullet to penetrate. Generally speaking, a FMJ profile will penetrate more than a JHP, since the hollow point will tend to expand and may induce a larger wound cavity with less penetration. Also, JHP bullets may fragment much easier when striking solid objects, rather than riccochet. Some bullets, like the frangible variety, may be made up of birdshot in an expoxy glue, and the bullet is less dense. These bullets often provide the least amount of penetration in soft tissue when used in handguns, but if a vital area is hit such as the lung or heart, can cause massive tissue damage.

4) The gyroscopic stability of a bullet in flight may greatly affect the penetration. A bullet that has minimal gyroscopic stability in flight, may keyhole or tumble when it strikes soft tissue. A bullet that tumbles may not penetrate like a bullet that has the rotational stability of a drill. Rifle rounds are known to leave the barrel of a gun in an unstable rotation, then finally come to full gyroscopic stability within 50 - 75 yds from the muzzle. Rifle shooters often describe this as "the bullet goes to sleep." It is analagous to a spinning top. When you first throw a child's top, it may start rotating in an erratic pattern until it attains gyroscopic stability and spins purely around its axis. The late Gen. Julian Hatcher showed pictures in his book "Hatcher's Notebook" of the penetration of a FMJ 30.06 projectile shot into a solid block of oak approximatley 3.5 feet in diameter at distances of 25 yards and 100 yards. The solid oak blocks were cut on a huge saw perfectly in line with the center of the bullet penetration path to show how the bullet reacted once it penetrated the wood. The 25 yd bullet had not reached full gyroscopic stability, and the bullet keyholed and travelled in an erratic pattern (zigzagged) in the wood for perhaps 20 inches of depth. The bullet fired at the 100 yd wood block, looked like someone had taken a drill press, and bored the wood block in a straight line. The bullet had reached 100% stability, and penetrated the wood oak block to a depth of 36 inches. Generally speaking, a rifle bullet with a long bearing surface may need a faster twist rate on the barrel to attain ideal gyroscopic stability. An AR-15 with a 1:9 twist barrel, may shoot a 55 gr bullet fine, but may not attain full gyroscopic stability using a 77 grain bullet. A faster barrel twist, such as a 1:8 twist may shoot heavier longer .224" diameter bullets with greater accuracy due to better rotation of the bullet.

When I hunted wild hogs with a hand gun, I wanted good penetration, and rather than buy an expensive JHP bullet, I simply used my own cast lead bullets, with a high Brinnel hardness, by using straight linotype lead, and quenched in water after knocking them out of the bullet mold. The bullet was a Keith style .44 mag cast bullet that weighed 260 grains. It was highly effective for hog hunting with outstanding penetration.

When it comes to worrying about "overpenetration" all of the above factors will affect the ability of the projectile to penetrate soft tissue.

Last edited by richpetrone; 04-26-2012 at 07:26 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 04-25-2012, 12:44 PM
Lorenzo Lorenzo is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 192
Gary Roberts wrote this excellent post on the subject over at http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=56486

Quote:
The Presumptive Hazards of Over-Penetration
8/23/11

Failures to stop a suspect because of under-penetration, poor bullet placement, and completely missing the target are far more significant problems than over-penetration. With shots to the center of mass, if a handgun or rifle bullet fails to have enough penetration to reach the large blood bearing vessels and organs in the torso, rapid physiological incapacitation is unlikely and an opponent may remain a lethal threat to officers and citizen bystanders. Conversely, if a bullet fired by officers completely penetrates a violent criminal and exits downrange, the bullet will certainly have had enough penetration to reach the large blood bearing vessels or organs in the torso. As a result, it is more likely to have caused sufficient hemorrhage to induce hypovolemic shock--the only reliable method of physiological incapacitation in the absence of CNS trauma.

Unfortunately, according to the available published date, the majority of shots fired in the field by U.S. LE officers miss their intended target. According to published NYPD SOP-9 data, the NYPD hit ratio by officers against perpetrators in 2000 was 12.3% of shots fired and in 2001 13.5% of shots fired. The Miami Metro-Dade County PD had hit ratios ranging between 15.4% and 30% from 1988-1994. Portland PD reported hits with 43% of shots fired at adversaries from 1984-1992, while Baltimore PD reported a 49% average hit ratio from 1989-2002.

Given that the reported averages for LE officers actually hitting the suspect ranges between 12% to 49% of shots fired, more concern should be given to the between 51-88% of shots fired by LE officers which completely MISS the intended target and immediately result in a significant threat to any person down range, rather than excessively worry about the relatively rare instance where one of the 12%-49% of shots fired actually hits the intended target and then exits the perpetrator in a fashion which still poses a hazard.

In short, the consequences of projectile under-penetration are far more likely to get officers and citizens killed than over-penetration issues.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 04-25-2012, 12:47 PM
tackerett tackerett is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Southern California
Posts: 85
Even though I like living in California for other reasons, lots of good riding weather and places to go. I live in a wood/Stuco house and living in liberal California, this is something I have to be concerned about. I am not going to obsess about it but I do have to keep it in mind that if I ever have to use my gun at home there is a possibility that one of my rounds may go where I don't want it to go. With that in mind I feel that using the right kind of home defense ammo and shot placement can minimize the issue somewhat but not totally. There have been lots of studies done about how bullets penetrate through ballistic gel and most have shown that bullets can penetrate through as much as 12-18 inches and still have the energy to continue through walls that are mostly wood and other soft structure. Am I going to lose sleep about it and not use my weapon if the need arises, no but I am conscience of it and accept that there may be other issues I have to deal with should the need ever arise.

As said many times on here each and everyone of us has to weigh all the issues and decide what we are willing to do.

YMMV

Tracy
__________________
"Life's short, enjoy every sandwich" (Warren Zevon)
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 04-25-2012, 12:57 PM
schwartzint1 schwartzint1 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 247
Most current construction brick houses are a brick fisad which I imagine a bullet would travel through. However many modern hollow points are frangable. As far as the original question goes. I know it's a large concern for srt and other entry teams as they often use 556 rifles. I have never read of a person being sued due to overpenatration. I wouldn't like to be the first though. Makes sense to spend a few bucks on some HPs
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 04-25-2012, 01:07 PM
Joel_H Joel_H is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Edgewater, MD
Posts: 1,229
A year or so ago some dummy in Virginia was apparently fondling a 12-gauge in his 2nd story bedroom. It discharged, blowing a hole in the wall of his house and some buckshot struck a lady next door who was in her backyard.

The same thing could easily happen with a handgun bullet. Even a .45 JHP can go through drywall and plywood and have enough energy to kill someone.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 04-25-2012, 01:25 PM
Dave Waits Dave Waits is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Loveland, Ohio
Posts: 4,122
There are ways around this gentlemen, first of all, let's face it, handguns are not the most efficient defensive weapons. Most calibers require multiple hits, there's over-penetration, ad -infinatum.

Now, if there are kids in the house, choices are truly limited but, if not then a static-defense is best. This means a shotgun can be used very effectively. For example, while I keep a 1911 handy, my main home-defense gun is a Norinco M97 Trenchgun loaded with Traploads. Before all you 'Armchair Ballisticians' scream about penetration, I've done some testing. At 21 feet, these loads, out of the Norinco, will put an approximately 2-1/2" diameter hole clean through 3/4" plywood. Much denser than human tissue, to be sure but, did not completely penetrate a simulated Drywall wall set up three feet behind it made with standard-grade 3/4" drywall, four-inch studs and another piece of 3/4" Drywall. I saw, in my repeated testing, no penetration problems such as shallow penetration.

There are places where a handgun is better, CCW for example since most Authorities frown apon people walking around with ARs and Shotguns. Plus, on open ground, a handgun is more accurate and less likely to throw pellets around at distance like a shotgun would.

It's a matter of picking the right tool for the job guys.
__________________
Diligentia, Vis, Celeritas
Jeff Cooper
COTEP#CBOB0428
Msgt., USAF,Ret.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 04-25-2012, 01:56 PM
dakota1911 dakota1911 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: The Great American Desert
Posts: 14,472
I would also be interested in cases where overpenetration of a round killed someone. No doubt it has been done.
__________________
NRA Life Member
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 04-25-2012, 02:40 PM
IronFilex IronFilex is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 1,221
I think a lot comes down to what kind of caliber is being shot if its a SD situation outside the house. If some schmuck is carring a 44mag/ 10mm/ 500sw/ or any other heavy hitting magnums or magnum like calibers and decides to use something like hard cast lead +p ammo, ammo thats meant to penetrate thick skin animals, and uses it in an SD situation in a public place there is a great chance for over penetration and possible death or injury to bystanders.

Also calibers like the Russian 7.62x25 in surplus ammo have the capability to defeat police vests so if the same shooter uses that for SD in the same public place there is the same chance for death or injury to bystanders. Or an AK47 pistol.

Also you never know who you'll need to protect yourself from. Is the BD an avg wheight person? A person whos muscular, or one who is 400lbs of flab. How about an 80lb crackhead.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 04-25-2012, 05:55 PM
RedRiderF26 RedRiderF26 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: INLAND EMPIRE, CALIFAS
Posts: 101
I would think that HP's will fragment quite a bit when they strike an object and be alot less likely to have the same penetration force as a FMJ.... I think so anyways, anyone care to chime in?
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 04-25-2012, 07:11 PM
CavCop CavCop is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Texas
Posts: 3,255
Quote:
Originally Posted by mara5 View Post
I keep reading about concerns of over penetration. Personnally, I've never read of such an issue. Can anyone point out any confirmable data of someone being hit by an over penetration bullet. Better yet,any documented person being charged legally of shooting another thru over penetration?
How many articals do you want?

http://articles.boston.com/2012-02-1...al-center-wall

http://www.heraldextra.com/news/loca...9bb2963f4.html

http://www.kgw.com/home/Aloha-man-sh...137383893.html

I can find some drive by's where pistols and long guns were used. People and kids inside killed by the penitration.

Accidents with death, etc...

Is it that hard to believe? Or that hard to find stories?
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 04-25-2012, 07:33 PM
DeltaShooter DeltaShooter is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Metro Detroit Area
Posts: 314
Quote:
Originally Posted by CavCop View Post
How many articals do you want?

http://articles.boston.com/2012-02-1...al-center-wall

http://www.heraldextra.com/news/loca...9bb2963f4.html

http://www.kgw.com/home/Aloha-man-sh...137383893.html

I can find some drive by's where pistols and long guns were used. People and kids inside killed by the penitration.

Accidents with death, etc...

Is it that hard to believe? Or that hard to find stories?
I think the earlier posters meant someone involved in a SD shooting wherein the round over penetrated the BG and hurt/killed an innocent. Which I happen to believe is completely possible, especially in a crowded setting.
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 04-25-2012, 08:33 PM
mara5 mara5 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Western Iowa
Posts: 664
CavCop: Not one of your examples concerns what was asked. People either purposely or accidentaly shooting thru walls has no bearing on question asked. Drive by shootings are also not germaine to the question at hand.
I specifically asked for info on a person being shot by another AND the bullet passing thru and striking another. I am only questioning over penetration of the human body and striking another.
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 04-25-2012, 09:20 PM
CavCop CavCop is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Texas
Posts: 3,255
Quote:
Originally Posted by mara5 View Post
CavCop: Not one of your examples concerns what was asked. People either purposely or accidentaly shooting thru walls has no bearing on question asked. Drive by shootings are also not germaine to the question at hand.
I specifically asked for info on a person being shot by another AND the bullet passing thru and striking another. I am only questioning over penetration of the human body and striking another.
Quote:
I keep reading about concerns of over penetration. Personnally, I've never read of such an issue. Can anyone point out any confirmable data of someone being hit by an over penetration bullet. Better yet, any documented person being charged legally of shooting another thru over penetration?
I thought I addresed what was asked...
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 04-26-2012, 07:38 PM
supervel supervel is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 786
Handgun Bullets that Don't Work

Quote:
Originally Posted by CavCop View Post
I thought I addresed what was asked...
If a handgun bullet cannot penitrate a sheet rock wall missing the 2x4 stud without killing the person behind that wall it is useless for self defence and will likely get you killed in such a situtiation.CavCop did not make any statements in that I have issue with.Read the 1 page.They are for Sky Martials and other type special situtations not general purpose aplications.It is a rare occurence with hollow point ammo and even FMJ. In said cases would a few inchs less have mattered, or were they bad shots anyway,that it was used as an excuse?

Last edited by supervel; 04-26-2012 at 07:51 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 04-25-2012, 08:42 PM
gasboffer gasboffer is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 86
I like over-penetration, then there are two holes for the .............to bleed out!
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 04-25-2012, 08:52 PM
mara5 mara5 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Western Iowa
Posts: 664
GASBOFFER, no argument.
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 04-25-2012, 09:25 PM
rex rex is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: S. FL
Posts: 3,133
This is an old topic that has caused the progress of bullets and ammo,but it isn't a generalized question.

I like a 45 for a SD pistol,in the FL summer and at normal "encountered" ranges I'm not carrying a FMJ.A pure tissue hit will blow right through and opens up collateral damage issues.Technically the outcome falls on the perp that caused the situation,but you have to deal with the fact personally and the douche lawyers will do everything they can to make that even worse.

Conversely using a HP in the north when it's below freezing,belly shot in their 1/4 keg,etc. isn't a wise choice either.The exact situation can't be forseen so it's a matter of weighing the present situation that can happen and pulling a compromise.
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 04-25-2012, 10:11 PM
nevada 1911 nevada 1911 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: winnemucca, nevada
Posts: 392
I sometimes have my Colts loaded with hard lswc's, fmj or xtp's, if a situation developes for use of one or the other, whatever is loaded at the time will be what goes down the barrel, no second guessing, none.
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 04-26-2012, 07:57 PM
supervel supervel is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 786
Quote:
Originally Posted by rex View Post
This is an old topic that has caused the progress of bullets and ammo,but it isn't a generalized question.

I like a 45 for a SD pistol,in the FL summer and at normal "encountered" ranges I'm not carrying a FMJ.A pure tissue hit will blow right through and opens up collateral damage issues.Technically the outcome falls on the perp that caused the situation,but you have to deal with the fact personally and the douche lawyers will do everything they can to make that even worse.

Conversely using a HP in the north when it's below freezing,belly shot in their 1/4 keg,etc. isn't a wise choice either.The exact situation can't be forseen so it's a matter of weighing the present situation that can happen and pulling a compromise.
Do you have little perp's in Florida are our's just bigger in Texas?
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:58 PM.


NOTICE TO USERS OF THIS SITE: By continuing to use this site, you certify that you have read and agree to abide by the Legal Terms of Use. All information, data, text or other materials ("Content") posted to this site by any users are the sole responsibility of those users. 1911Forum does not guarantee the accuracy, integrity, or quality of such Content.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2014 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Copyright 2011 1911Forum.com, LLC. All Rights Reserved