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  #1  
Old 02-19-2012, 08:56 AM
Lanyard Lanyard is offline
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Military Cartridge Question




Recently, a friend showed me what appears to be a .45 ACP military cartridge from his collection. Description is as follows: round nose projectile, of - apparently - steel construction; projectile appears to be cannelured for crimping; case is factory crimped with a sharp, uniform, bevelled taper around the cannelure; base of case is stamped with UK or Aussie (?) War Department arrows and the number 1.

Can anyone provide information on the structure and purpose of this intriguing round?

(The steel appearance of the projectile is suggested by its bright chrome or ballbearing-like shine.)

Last edited by Lanyard; 02-19-2012 at 09:01 AM. Reason: Additional description
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  #2  
Old 02-19-2012, 11:35 AM
USMM guy USMM guy is offline
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If you take a knife blade or a nail and scratch it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lanyard View Post
Recently, a friend showed me what appears to be a .45 ACP military cartridge from his collection. Description is as follows: round nose projectile, of - apparently - steel construction; projectile appears to be cannelured for crimping; case is factory crimped with a sharp, uniform, bevelled taper around the cannelure; base of case is stamped with UK or Aussie (?) War Department arrows and the number 1.

Can anyone provide information on the structure and purpose of this intriguing round?

(The steel appearance of the projectile is suggested by its bright chrome or ballbearing-like shine.)
You will likely find that it is lead.
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  #3  
Old 02-20-2012, 07:31 AM
Lanyard Lanyard is offline
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Not like any lead projectile I ever saw.

Next time I get a look at the round, I'll do the scratch test as you suggest (the owner permitting), but I doubt if the surface material is lead. Perhaps there is lead under the jacket but the outside looks like steel or chrome. I've moulded plenty of lead bullets and never seen one with a hard, bright steel shine like that. Plus the case seems quite old and lead doesn't hold a shine for long. It's been many a long year since British Commonwealth forces used the 1911. Then there is the significant crimp around the case mouth and the deep cannelure in the projectile to facilitate it. I'll try to get a picture of it next time.
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  #4  
Old 02-25-2012, 08:52 AM
twitchn1911 twitchn1911 is offline
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put a magnet to it. if it's lead then it will not stick to the bullet
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  #5  
Old 02-25-2012, 11:45 AM
Lanyard Lanyard is offline
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Thanks for the magnet idea. Haven't had a chance to check the round out again since my original post. I'm pretty sure it's steel. I'll post a pic eventually.
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  #6  
Old 02-27-2012, 01:16 PM
joshua casher joshua casher is offline
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I doubt the bullet is lead. I suspect the bullet is jacketed and made of some kind of alloy. If a magnet sticks to the bullet then the bullet is likely an alloy that has a mild steel in the jacket. If the bullet does not stick to the bullet then it is most likely a cupro-nickel alloy.
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  #7  
Old 02-28-2012, 11:40 AM
bullet45acp bullet45acp is offline
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I was given a bunch of bad 9mm military surplus made by FN. The bullets have a cupro-nickel alloy and look silver.

JAG
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  #8  
Old 02-28-2012, 12:11 PM
cololab cololab is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bullet45acp View Post
I was given a bunch of bad 9mm military surplus made by FN. The bullets have a cupro-nickel alloy and look silver.

JAG
I've got a few military rounds and some loose bullets in .45 ACP, .30 carbine, 30-06, and .303 British with the cupro-nickel bullet composition. I'm guessing you may have something similar.
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  #9  
Old 05-05-2012, 11:00 AM
Lanyard Lanyard is offline
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Pics at last

Thanks to all for the replies on this. Sorry for not responding sooner; I have been off-forum for quite a while. However, I finally managed to get some photographs and some more precise details of the mystery round.

1. The owner of the round tried the magnet test: the bullet is not magnetic, so the outside is not steel.

2. The surface cannot be marked by heavy application of the thumbnail and has remained bright and shiney for years: perhaps the cupro-nickel alloy?

3. The bullet is .454" in diameter

4. The case is 5 thousands of an inch wider than a standard .45ACP case.

5. Significantly, the case has a rim 25 thousands of an inch wider than the 45ACP

6. The length of the case is longer than a .45 ACP by the length of the bevelled crimp.

7. Note that the round is 'cut' and tapered (?) to permit the crimp to bite in.

8. There are what look to be British Commonwealth war department arrows on the base of the case and numbers 1(?), 2 and E(?).

Is this some kind of revolver round? Is cupro-nickel (if it is that) any harder than copper? If so, what is the purpose of such a jacket???

Any further comments or info would be much appreciated.


P5050006.jpg

P5050004.jpg

P5050007.jpg

Last edited by Lanyard; 05-05-2012 at 11:06 AM.
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  #10  
Old 05-05-2012, 11:06 AM
breamfisher breamfisher is offline
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It's a .455 Webley Auto Mk 1 Cartridge. Used in British 1911s in WWI.
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  #11  
Old 05-05-2012, 11:26 AM
Lanyard Lanyard is offline
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Wow! Thanks for the rapid reply and identification. This is really interesting. I am sure the owner of the round will be as fascinated as I am. I didn't know the British used 1911s in WW1. This is a rimmed cartridge; so the Brit 1911s were modified accordingly? We assumed that it was a 1911 .45ACP but on closer inspection, the presence of the rim seemed to suggest otherwise.

Thanks again for your help here.

Edit: You were spot on! Just found the description below from wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.455_Webley

".455 Webley Auto Mk I: Produced from 1913 to about the middle of WWII. This is a semi-rimmed cartridge for the Webley & Scott Self Loading pistols, along with some M1911 pistols purchased by the Royal Navy. The cartridge headspaces on the rim and was loaded with a 224 grain cupro-nickel jacketed bullet with a muzzle velocity of 700 feet per second."

I have always longed for a Royal Flying Corps Webley and Scott automatic. Now I have the Royal Navy 1911 to add to my list (of - for me - unobtainable dream automatic pistols).

Regards


Lanyard

Last edited by Lanyard; 05-05-2012 at 11:39 AM.
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