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  #1  
Old 02-10-2012, 10:44 AM
Herbert Cannon Herbert Cannon is offline
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A Gentle Reminder




The other day I took my wife to the movies. After the movie, I went into the men's room. As I was walking to the sinks, past the stalls, to wash my hands, one of the stall doors burst open and a tall, young, black man burst out. He was about 15 feet from me. It startled me.
I took a really quick look at him; and he was a clean cut looking young guy
( even though he had that hairdo popular among black football players where the hair sticks out of the back of the helmet - rastafarian curls?). He looked like a college student and not a gang banger. Obviously, he had pushed too hard on the stall door and it had flown open with a bang as he strode out. I think it even startled him.
My jacket was open so I could have drawn my pistol without any encumbrance ( I remember that instant thought as the door banged). My pistol was a Glock 9mm 19 ( boo hiss). I like to carry it because it is light and has a lot of rounds. I do not know, if I could have brought it into play, at such a short distance though. I decided in an instant, after a quick observation, this was not a hostile encounter so no draw.
Some reminder lessons I learned from this benign encounter were:
1. Things happen at very short distances and close ranges ( thank goodness this was not a hostile encounter).
2. Close range practice is essential.
3. You have to make split second observations and decisions.
4. I do not need a lot of 9mm rounds, I may only need a few hard hitting larger rounds ( 45 acp) at short distances.
5. You can learn a lot from even benign encounters.
6. Wear your pistol where you can get to it in a hurry and practice doing so.
7. I switched back to carrying my lightweight custom classic Wilson 45
( yay!) as my ccw with 9 rounds and a couple of extra mags.
Your observations?
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  #2  
Old 02-10-2012, 10:51 AM
Horoscope Fish Horoscope Fish is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Herbert Cannon View Post
(even though he had that hairdo ... where the hair sticks out of the back of the helmet - rastafarian curls?).
I'm thinking he had dreadlocks; or dreads' for short.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Herbert Cannon View Post
Your observations?
Sounds like you got startled and it made you think; which is probably a good thing.
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  #3  
Old 02-10-2012, 11:58 AM
corker corker is offline
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sounds like you did fine. You first were startled by the noise, then saw a man (young, old, black, white green or purple, doesn't really matter) and then had time to see that he was well dressed, note his hair style and label as non threatening at that moment, all in a blink of the eye. I have a feeling you would have been able to draw your weapon as well, in a blink of an eye if one little thing caught your eye as not looking right. Just my thoughts.
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  #4  
Old 02-12-2012, 09:34 AM
Herbert Cannon Herbert Cannon is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by corker View Post
sounds like you did fine. You first were startled by the noise, then saw a man (young, old, black, white green or purple, doesn't really matter) and then had time to see that he was well dressed, note his hair style and label as non threatening at that moment, all in a blink of the eye. I have a feeling you would have been able to draw your weapon as well, in a blink of an eye if one little thing caught your eye as not looking right. Just my thoughts.
Thank you.
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  #5  
Old 02-10-2012, 12:28 PM
M4finny M4finny is offline
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More training recommended

Quote:
Originally Posted by Herbert Cannon View Post
The other day I took my wife to the movies. After the movie, I went into the men's room. As I was walking to the sinks, past the stalls, to wash my hands, one of the stall doors burst open and a tall, young, black man burst out. He was about 15 feet from me. It startled me.
I took a really quick look at him; and he was a clean cut looking young guy
( even though he had that hairdo popular among black football players where the hair sticks out of the back of the helmet - rastafarian curls?). He looked like a college student and not a gang banger. Obviously, he had pushed too hard on the stall door and it had flown open with a bang as he strode out. I think it even startled him.
My jacket was open so I could have drawn my pistol without any encumbrance ( I remember that instant thought as the door banged). My pistol was a Glock 9mm 19 ( boo hiss). I like to carry it because it is light and has a lot of rounds. I do not know, if I could have brought it into play, at such a short distance though. I decided in an instant, after a quick observation, this was not a hostile encounter so no draw.
Some reminder lessons I learned from this benign encounter were:
1. Things happen at very short distances and close ranges ( thank goodness this was not a hostile encounter).
2. Close range practice is essential.
3. You have to make split second observations and decisions.
4. I do not need a lot of 9mm rounds, I may only need a few hard hitting larger rounds ( 45 acp) at short distances.
5. You can learn a lot from even benign encounters.
6. Wear your pistol where you can get to it in a hurry and practice doing so.
7. I switched back to carrying my lightweight custom classic Wilson 45
( yay!) as my ccw with 9 rounds and a couple of extra mags.
Your observations?
These factors (highlighted above) are why I personally believe that training in empty hand techniques to fend off a close-in, surprise attack is essential.

Far too many people spend time only on drawing and shooting. And while that is great, if you have no skills with which to buy some time for yourself to draw and fire from retention, you're gonna lose at that distance. This is especially true if your attacker has armed himself with a firearm or an edged weapon.

Folks would do well to learn some basic blocking and trapping techniques along with picking up some grappling/joint control skills. That way, they can fend off and turn away a close in attack just long enough to buy themselves some time to go to the edged weapon or to the gun if needed.

YMMV,

Fin
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  #6  
Old 02-10-2012, 12:38 PM
corker corker is offline
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This is actually being discussed in another thread started by RedHat. How do we practice close quarters defense shooting? There are a few good ideas that some of the posters have added.
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  #7  
Old 02-10-2012, 01:01 PM
Mr. T Mr. T is offline
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Fin I couldn't agree more. The way I see it, I will probably need to put some separation between an attacker and myself before I try to access the firearm. Secondly, if I can stop the attack and exit the situation without the use of a firearm, I will be more than happy to do so.
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  #8  
Old 02-10-2012, 01:19 PM
M4finny M4finny is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. T View Post
Fin I couldn't agree more. The way I see it, I will probably need to put some separation between an attacker and myself before I try to access the firearm. Secondly, if I can stop the attack and exit the situation without the use of a firearm, I will be more than happy to do so.
This past week, I watched an episode of the Best Defense where Mike Janich and Mike Seeklander described a simple technique called the "Split X" defense and it involves what I was speaking about with regard to blocking and trapping.

I believe that it is simple to learn and practice with a partner and put into your "tool box" for use on the street or, at work for those of us in LE. I have personally plugged it into my practice sessions for myself.

It has one of the most attractive aspects in any CQB tactics in that it is pretty simple to learn and incorporates the same natural reaction dynamics that most people are familiar with when responding to a threat. Further, what I really like about the technique is that it lends itself to setting your opponent up for you to either deliver debilitating blows/strikes to his vital areas, or sets you up nicely to simply move or shove him out of your way and past you in a direction where his back is turned toward you so that you can run or, access a weapon.

Combining this or other blocking/trapping techniques with a series of open hand blows to the face or side of the head, knees to the sternum or stomps upon the instep or kicks to the side of the knee, will serve to disorient and cripple an attacker fast. The result may be that you will not have to shoot your assailant. Although, he may wish that you had

Shooting is not the only answer IMHO. And, if practiced properly and regularly with a partner, these skills can be honed quickly to give you another option other than clearing leather and shooting an assailant. After all, if the only tool in your tool box is a hammer, every problem that you are faced with will look like a nail.

Stay safe everyone,

Fin
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  #9  
Old 02-10-2012, 09:43 PM
USMM guy USMM guy is online now
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Well said!

Quote:
Originally Posted by M4finny View Post
This past week, I watched an episode of the Best Defense where Mike Janich and Mike Seeklander described a simple technique called the "Split X" defense and it involves what I was speaking about with regard to blocking and trapping.

I believe that it is simple to learn and practice with a partner and put into your "tool box" for use on the street or, at work for those of us in LE. I have personally plugged it into my practice sessions for myself.

It has one of the most attractive aspects in any CQB tactics in that it is pretty simple to learn and incorporates the same natural reaction dynamics that most people are familiar with when responding to a threat. Further, what I really like about the technique is that it lends itself to setting your opponent up for you to either deliver debilitating blows/strikes to his vital areas, or sets you up nicely to simply move or shove him out of your way and past you in a direction where his back is turned toward you so that you can run or, access a weapon.

Combining this or other blocking/trapping techniques with a series of open hand blows to the face or side of the head, knees to the sternum or stomps upon the instep or kicks to the side of the knee, will serve to disorient and cripple an attacker fast. The result may be that you will not have to shoot your assailant. Although, he may wish that you had

Shooting is not the only answer IMHO. And, if practiced properly and regularly with a partner, these skills can be honed quickly to give you another option other than clearing leather and shooting an assailant. After all, if the only tool in your tool box is a hammer, every problem that you are faced with will look like a nail.

Stay safe everyone,

Fin
I have had to do this on a number of occasions. It is amazing how some would be perps will respond to having the cotton candy knocked out of them as opposed to having a would be victim just roll over and show their underbelly, hoping that they will not be hurt too bad.
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  #10  
Old 02-10-2012, 10:24 PM
OIF2 OIF2 is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M4finny View Post
These factors (highlighted above) are why I personally believe that training in empty hand techniques to fend off a close-in, surprise attack is essential.

Far too many people spend time only on drawing and shooting. And while that is great, if you have no skills with which to buy some time for yourself to draw and fire from retention, you're gonna lose at that distance. This is especially true if your attacker has armed himself with a firearm or an edged weapon.

Folks would do well to learn some basic blocking and trapping techniques along with picking up some grappling/joint control skills. That way, they can fend off and turn away a close in attack just long enough to buy themselves some time to go to the edged weapon or to the gun if needed.

YMMV,

Fin
I think the Finn-man nailed it again. This highlights what cops think about constantly; the weapon you carry, in most instances, is an impediment that must be protected. Close-quarters defense is all about protecting and securing your weapon first, not drawing and engaging. If you're punched or knocked down, it's the price you pay hanging onto your weapon. What I see with most posters here (without law enforcement experience) is the inability to see that most encounters will NOT involve initially drawing your weapon; planning for such an event is critical, though, if you carry. The worst possible thing that can happen is to lose control of your pistol. Thinking and training for some kind of simple defensive retention and counter-response is far more important than what weapon, holster or ammo you carry. Being jumped while armed is much more likely than interrupting a take-down robbery in the local eatery. Excellent topic.
Bob

Last edited by OIF2; 02-10-2012 at 10:30 PM.
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  #11  
Old 02-10-2012, 10:58 PM
facilitator facilitator is offline
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IMHO, this thread is a great "lesson to be learned" at least for me. Specifically, what I'm learning is that I need to "refresh" and practice the martial arts techniques that I learned years ago.

Fin is absolutely correct. Fending off a "close quarter situation" may not allow you to draw your gun first. You may very well have to use some combination of blocks and strikes initially. Then, depending on the outcome, you may or may not be able to use your weapon.

I'm really glad this topic came up.
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  #12  
Old 02-10-2012, 11:26 PM
USMM guy USMM guy is online now
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I am too

Quote:
Originally Posted by facilitator View Post
IMHO, this thread is a great "lesson to be learned" at least for me. Specifically, what I'm learning is that I need to "refresh" and practice the martial arts techniques that I learned years ago.

Fin is absolutely correct. Fending off a "close quarter situation" may not allow you to draw your gun first. You may very well have to use some combination of blocks and strikes initially. Then, depending on the outcome, you may or may not be able to use your weapon.

I'm really glad this topic came up.
I have always subscribed to the idea. That the best defense is a good offense. I always used to get a certain amount of amusement from the jokers that used to say. "I will always let the other guy take the first punch" It would appear to me that anyone making this kind of statement has likely not been in many, if any real fights.
Anybody that actually has been in a real fight or two will be the first one to admit. The first punch from somebody that knows how to punch, may very well be the last punch of the fight. Trust me on this.
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  #13  
Old 02-12-2012, 09:38 AM
Herbert Cannon Herbert Cannon is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M4finny View Post
These factors (highlighted above) are why I personally believe that training in empty hand techniques to fend off a close-in, surprise attack is essential.

Far too many people spend time only on drawing and shooting. And while that is great, if you have no skills with which to buy some time for yourself to draw and fire from retention, you're gonna lose at that distance. This is especially true if your attacker has armed himself with a firearm or an edged weapon.

Folks would do well to learn some basic blocking and trapping techniques along with picking up some grappling/joint control skills. That way, they can fend off and turn away a close in attack just long enough to buy themselves some time to go to the edged weapon or to the gun if needed.

YMMV,

Fin
I agree that empty handed techniques are necessary to learn and I have BB in several martial arts. However, I am now an old man and do not kid myself about my ability to fend off and fight younger men. I am true to the old adage about do not fight with old men because they will kill you. Fighting is for young men.
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  #14  
Old 02-12-2012, 10:08 AM
M4finny M4finny is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Herbert Cannon View Post
I agree that empty handed techniques are necessary to learn and I have BB in several martial arts. However, I am now an old man and do not kid myself about my ability to fend off and fight younger men. I am true to the old adage about do not fight with old men because they will kill you. Fighting is for young men.
Fair enough Herb. And I agree with you regarding that adage.

Stay safe out there,

Fin
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  #15  
Old 02-12-2012, 03:43 PM
Herbert Cannon Herbert Cannon is offline
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Originally Posted by M4finny View Post
Fair enough Herb. And I agree with you regarding that adage.

Stay safe out there,

Fin
Thank you for the good wishes. You stay safe also!
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  #16  
Old 02-20-2012, 01:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m4finny View Post
these factors (highlighted above) are why i personally believe that training in empty hand techniques to fend off a close-in, surprise attack is essential.

Far too many people spend time only on drawing and shooting. And while that is great, if you have no skills with which to buy some time for yourself to draw and fire from retention, you're gonna lose at that distance. This is especially true if your attacker has armed himself with a firearm or an edged weapon.

Folks would do well to learn some basic blocking and trapping techniques along with picking up some grappling/joint control skills. That way, they can fend off and turn away a close in attack just long enough to buy themselves some time to go to the edged weapon or to the gun if needed.

Ymmv,

fin
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Old 02-10-2012, 03:05 PM
Amos Iron Wolf Amos Iron Wolf is online now
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I don't routinely buy defense DVDs, but some time back I did get Michael D. Janich's "Martial Blade Concepts The Enhanced Version," "Martial Cane Concepts," and "Forever Armed." I like his approach and the techniques, based on Filipino martial arts, are simple, straight forward, and focus on quickly immobilizing an attacker AND making your escape. No macho, kick his ass, BS involved. Just defend yourself fast and get safe.

I must confess I haven't been training to them as I should and they aren't as useful as they would be if I practiced more. I think a lot of people miss that part. "What, I can't just watch and be badazz?"

Herbert I think you made some good points about close and sudden. A good reminder for all of us.
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Old 02-20-2012, 05:28 PM
FormerGlocker FormerGlocker is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Amos Iron Wolf View Post
I don't routinely buy defense DVDs, but some time back I did get Michael D. Janich's "Martial Blade Concepts The Enhanced Version," "Martial Cane Concepts," and "Forever Armed." I like his approach and the techniques, based on Filipino martial arts, are simple, straight forward, and focus on quickly immobilizing an attacker AND making your escape. No macho, kick his ass, BS involved. Just defend yourself fast and get safe.

I must confess I haven't been training to them as I should and they aren't as useful as they would be if I practiced more. I think a lot of people miss that part. "What, I can't just watch and be badazz?"

Herbert I think you made some good points about close and sudden. A good reminder for all of us.

HI Amos and all in the thread,

I can appreciate the concern for wanting to learn open-handed techniques to defend one's self or others, but as a martial instructor my overriding concern is that the individual learn the technique from a licensed instructor who can provide the proper guidance and correction in repeated practice to perform the technique correctly to obtain the desired result no different than any of us seeking out an NRA certified instructor or a qualified ex-LEO/Military specialist for our firearms training. Books and videos certainly have their place and are a fine supplement in certain areas...but the martial arts are not one of them.
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Old 02-20-2012, 06:30 PM
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HI Amos and all in the thread,

I can appreciate the concern for wanting to learn open-handed techniques to defend one's self or others, but as a martial instructor my overriding concern is that the individual learn the technique from a licensed instructor who can provide the proper guidance and correction in repeated practice to perform the technique correctly to obtain the desired result no different than any of us seeking out an NRA certified instructor or a qualified ex-LEO/Military specialist for our firearms training. Books and videos certainly have their place and are a fine supplement in certain areas...but the martial arts are not one of them.
I'm inclined to agree. I've been thinking of taking up something like karate or similar, and watching is never as good as being instructed.
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Old 02-21-2012, 02:43 AM
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Master Yow speak now

1. Kicking charging agressor higher than the knee will result in ones own demise, as you will most likely be on your butt at the end of kick.
2. Man with knife already have plan. He move fast, strike fast, take away opportunity for recovery by foe. By it's own nature, knives up close and personal, and the man who choose knife, know this, and accepts this as fact.
3. A pistol is a tool, no more, no less. If you can keep the angle of the muzzle off of ones person, you will have time to deliver much damage to the tissue of your enemy. Retention work both ways. If you can align your pistol to your enemy you will cause much damage to his tissue.
4. At least 5 times a day, I repeat to my little son when he comes up with his rifle,shotgun,pistols,knife toys. Never,ever get close enough to allow your opponent to take away your ability to use your weapon. If you find yourself in position, where you need to use your weapon, do so. It may be too late if you think it through.
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Old 02-21-2012, 06:08 AM
richpetrone richpetrone is offline
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Master Yow speak now

Quote:
Kicking charging agressor higher than the knee will result in ones own demise, as you will most likely be on your butt at the end of kick.
2. Man with knife already have plan. He move fast, strike fast, take away opportunity for recovery by foe. By it's own nature, knives up close and personal, and the man who choose knife, know this, and accepts this as fact.
In the scenario I described, I was wearing gym shorts and a duty belt, and my only recourse to stop and imminent knife thrust was to extend my leg and kick to fend off the attack because I fumbled the draw....this allowed me enough time to get the weapon out.

The above statements about knife attacks sounds like it is based on military combat tactics. There are a lot of assumptions in the statements. First off, you can't presume that everyone that carries a knife is a Master of the blade with super fast reflexes. A criminal (not a combat soldier) with a knife may have never had any training, or may have had a great deal of training. You may not know the mental or physical condition of the person using the knife....a drunken criminal with a knife may be easier to defeat than a criminal hopped up on PPC.

My point of the post I made was "Drawing your weapon, time and distance."
I failed to draw my weapon fast enough facing an imminent attack from a suspect with a knife that was 20ft. away so I used my leg and foot to slow down the attacker so I could clear the leather of my duty weapon. In this training exercise it worked....in real life, I probably would have done the same, and even accepted a "sliced up leg" if I could have delayed the attack to enable me to draw my weapon and shoot from retention, if needed.
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Old 02-10-2012, 03:39 PM
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Slow is fast.. observe, decide and act.. All at the same time.. Maybe you can dissuade an attacker, maybe not. Time is only on your side if you use it.. fast.. JMO.. Ron
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Old 02-10-2012, 08:03 PM
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Next time, observe the stalls around you. Are the doors open, closed, or locked? Are there feet showing? Is the person sitting or standing? This only takes a second or so to observe. Distance yourself from the occupied stall to give yourself a step or two assess and react. Situational awareness is a full time gig. Carrying a firearm simply gives you another option to react to the situation that you have become aware of.
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Old 02-10-2012, 08:46 PM
Bill Mannatt Bill Mannatt is offline
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I'd be beyond help if I thought carrying a gun(s) was the end-all answer to personal defense.Or a knife. Physical conditioning,combined with a knowledge of some basic defensive moves,sans weapons, will probably be a deciding factor in many close encounters .Either by creating distance,or buying time.Many attacks are "sneak" attacks,after all,they are perpetrated by cowards.
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  #25  
Old 02-12-2012, 09:43 AM
Herbert Cannon Herbert Cannon is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Mannatt View Post
I'd be beyond help if I thought carrying a gun(s) was the end-all answer to personal defense.Or a knife. Physical conditioning,combined with a knowledge of some basic defensive moves,sans weapons, will probably be a deciding factor in many close encounters .Either by creating distance,or buying time.Many attacks are "sneak" attacks,after all,they are perpetrated by cowards.

Until you become an old man like myself.
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