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Failure to feed

8K views 38 replies 21 participants last post by  Temper 
#1 ·
I am having a failure to feed problem with my 1911. it is a rock island standard GI. The load i am having problems with is 200 grain swc, COAL is 1.25, and 4.7 grains of w231. when the slide slams forward after releasing the slide release, the first shell loads fine, so i dont believe its a feed ramp issue, however after the recoil loads the next shell, the slide stops about 1/8 from full forward, you push the slide forward with your thumb then the pistol is ok to fire, i tried a little title crimp and did not seem to help, almost seems to be that the extractor is running into the back of the case, any help would be appreciated
 
#2 ·
1st, welcome.
Without being there, I'd guess it is an issue with your reloads, even if the slide does close on the 1st round. Did you "plunk test" the rounds? The usual culprits are crimp & OAL. Make sure your crimp is very close to 0.47" and only a thumbnail width of the bullet shoulder is exposed above the case (from bottom of rim to top of shoulder should be about 0.93").

Good luck.
 
#4 ·
There was a similar post a week or so ago. Can't remember the forum or poster (or what I had for supper last nite).
I acquired a new Talo 38 Super LW Commander a few months ago and had endless problems like yours. I fiddled with my loads for some time and never could get it to feed properly. I don't believe it ever loaded two rounds in a row. One evening I was completely disgusted with it and was trying to come up with something. The next morning I went out to shoot again and did not have a single problem. I shot it several times with six different mags and never a problem--till a couple of weeks ago when it again quit going into battery.
That is when I read the posting I referred to above. There were several postings on the thread as to OAL, crimp, mags, etc. One poster, however, suggested lubrication of the pistol. Last weekend I took it out, along with a small bottle of CLP. I lubed the barrel/bushing and rails, maybe excessively. I ran 91 rounds in six mags, over a couple of evenings, without a single failure.
I have been wishing I could find that post to think the person who suggested the lubrication.
 
#7 · (Edited)
Cartridges either pass chamber plunk test/case gage or not. Then suggest you proceed to other variables, otherwise it's an episode of tail chasing, time and/or money wasted. Match case mouth diameter with a known to feed in your pistol cartridge/case mouth (factory ammunition) diameter.

If feed is still an issue, then proceed to other variables, suggesting anyways.

dc.
 
#9 · (Edited)
If your rounds are passing the plunk test ok, a couple of other things to look at with an RIA are in order. If this is a new gun, I would run at least three hundred rounds of standard ball through it as a break in. It would also be beneficial to have a gunsmith polish up the feed path real good. It may also need to have the barrel ramp throated for better feeding of HP and SWC type ammo.

If you have the stock Armscor mags check that they are locking up all the way up in the mag well. If, after seating a loaded mag, you can push it up a bit higher in the feed path, I guarantee that will cause feeding problems. Another mag issue has to do with the shape of the magazine feed lips. The stock mags let the round pop up early in the feed cycle and it may not be getting up behind the extractor hook as it should. Standard GI profile mags do a better job of controlling when the round is released and will help that problem.

As others have said, you might bump up the charge on those loads some as well. 4.7 gr. is a bit on the light side, especially if the gun is new and not broken in yet.

I know all this because I've got the RIA Tactical, and yours is doing exactly what mine did when new. I replaced the mag catch with one that locks the mags higher in the well, had the barrel and feed ramp throated and polished, and replaced the mags with 7 round GI type mags. It percolates right along now. This is all typical stuff with the Rock Island.
 
#11 ·
I know all this because I've got the RIA Tactical, and yours is doing exactly what mine did when new. I replaced the mag catch with one that locks the mags higher in the well, had the barrel and feed ramp throated and polished, and replaced the mags with 7 round GI type mags. It percolates right along now. This is all typical stuff with the Rock Island.
I have also replaced the mag catch on my Citadel as recommended by this forum and contacted RIA and they sent me the part for free! However, this did not totally eliminate the feeding problem and still ended up with Wilson mags.
 
#10 · (Edited)
What mags are you using?

I run a Citadel in 45ACP that had serious feed problems with the factory mags and I had 6 of them since they are so cheap. I did everything that I could with my reloads to fix the problem with minimal success. SWC were extremely problematic and RN was more reliable but still had feed problems on occassion.

The only thing that fixed it for me was to run Wilson Combat mags. I exclusively use Wilsons on both of my 1911's and I have not had any problems since. I shoot IDPA with my Citadel and have not had any problems during any course of fire.
 
#20 ·
I'm using Checkmate 7-rd GI mags, with the original controlled release feed lips.
 
#12 ·
I think Alland has it right, since the first round feeds fine, and subsequent rounds do not. If you like the performance of that load, then a recoil spring change may be in order. If you wish to stay with the stock spring, then increase the powder charge, and test again.

If you still have issues after a powder charge increase, then I'd suggest you shorten your OAL to 1.235 and test again. Several of the RIA guns I have loaded for seem to prefer this shorter length, over the typical 1.250 length.
 
#17 ·
i will try a little heavier charge and try a few rounds
no need for a heavier charge ..that's not you problem .
the OAl you mentioned doesn't mean a thing either , because there are so many different styles of LSWC.

do you know what the "plunk test" is?
That's simply removing the barrel from the pistol and dropping a loaded rnd in.
the case rim should be flush or a thousandth or 3 below the barrel hood.
Drop in a factory rnd and you'll see what I mean.

start there



if they pass the plunk test, here's your problem





, the gun itself is over a year old and has had plenty of ammo through it
according to my Magic 8 Ball, you simply need a new 16 pnd recoil spring is all.
RIA springs are junk to start with..if you have more than 1000 rnds thru the pistol, you need a new spring anyway

Buy a new Wolfe spring
if your pistol is a 5" barrel, you need pt # 41916



http://www.gunsprings.com/Semi-Auto Pistols/COLT/1911 GOV'T PISTOL/cID1/mID1/dID1#3


..L.T.A.
 
#14 · (Edited)
I went through this with my RIA too. They replaced the recoil spring (felt much stiffer), tuned the extractor (but i don't think it was the problem). I also switched from AA#5 to W231 because pushing the out-of-battery-slide forward met with gritty resistance (unburned powder in the chamber). RIA chambers are tight. A crimp of .471 is probably too big. Shoot for .4685 to .470.

Are you sure the extractor is in the groove of the brass? just a light push with the thumb closes the slide? I had push-feed problems with my RIA, apparently because I never cleaned the oily gunk that developed on the mag lips (I over oiled the gun too). The last bullet would often fly out of the mag under recoil. This caused a secondary symptom of fail-to-eject on the last round since the push-feeds seriously de-tensioned the extractor.

My other RIA issue was an uncommanded slide-stop mid mag. RIA tried to fix this with a stiffer plunger spring, to no avail. An after market Fusion Firearms slide stop (with detent groove) fixed this once and for all.


my experience,
--edfardos
 
#15 · (Edited)
No disrespect to Jgardone or any other new reloader, I consider all reloaders friends and brothers.
Sometimes new reloaders make choices and then have a little difficulty.
No big deal, we'll try to help. Sometimes that help is offering a little education
on the selected components. I hope this helps.


The lead semi-wadcutter is an odd bullet. It was never intended to be a 'beginners bullet'.
It was devised as a specialized target bullet for slow fire accuracy match shooting.
They even developed specific magazine lips and mag followers for it,
and special target loads (very accurate loads!) have been developed
that differ from typical 200 grain lead bullet loads for the 45acp.
It's not a typical critter, it's a very specialized one.

It surely can run in (nearly) every 1911. Millions are loaded and shot every year.
But it's not a conventional bullet. Being brand new at reloading and going straight to
nearly the most difficult bullet to load and shoot successfully may be an unfortunate choice.
Some guns (and reloaders) get success right from the beginning.
Others struggle and never really get it to run. Even some experienced
reloaders have trouble with SWC in guns known to run perfectly well.
It might be a perfect choice, it might be a very unfortunate choice for others.

4.7 grains W231/HP38 with 200 grain semiwadcutter is mid-range load.
It isn't too soft by any means, but soft vs heavy is also relative to each gun.
Depending upon the springs (recoil and main), firing pin stop, tightness of the gun,
and the weight of the slide (you didn't even think of that, did you?) one gun's
lighter load may be another gun's hefty load.

The first effort at solution is to verify all dimensions of the cartridge and the gun itself.
Experiment with different cartridge lengths, powder charges, crimp diameters,
sizing die adjustments, recoil springs, lubricants, magazines, grip (meaning
the way you hold the pistol, not the grip panels you exchange by unscrewing
the grip screws). Seek the combination that works for you and your gun.

Some solutions are just bandaids to the real issue. Finding the real issue
and resolving it may take much more time, effort, patience, and sometimes luck.


Or, buy round nose 230 grain jacketed bullets. Load and shoot 500 of them.
Or maybe 1000. Or maybe 5000. When you get really good at this reloading thing,
then try different bullet styles, materials and weights.
The 230 grain round nose fmj bullet is by far, and I mean FAR, the easiest
to load and shoot in the 45acp 1911 pistol. By FAAARRRRRR.

In these tough times, it's hard to find 230grain fmj.
Even 230 grain round nose lead is easier to load & shoot than SWC.
But it may be necessary to just keep working with what you got
until you succeed.

I think I would carefully increase the charge by 2/10, then another 2/10,
the another 2/10 grain of powder to see if that helps overcome the problem.
If those loads cycle the gun, are easy to shoot, and accurate then
you have your solution. If they cycle the gun but aren't as accurate
then try a softer recoil spring and go back down to 4.7 grains or so.



Just to repeat, so I save a lot of you from posting otherwise,
the 200 grain lead semiwadcutter can run perfectly well in most 1911 pistols.
It isn't impossible. But it's not a slam dunk guarantee either.
It's an odd bullet. Keep that in mind.

And if all else fails, go back to your reloading manuals and read every chapter
from beginning to end. Reinforce your knowledge. Many of these problems
are resolved in the head, not the gun.

Best of luck.
 
#19 ·
I went through the same thing with my Rock and tried all kids of tricks to get it to feed right.Finally got it to feed Most Of the time.Oddly enough they wont feed in my Glock either so I don't feel too bad.Anyway listen to what others advised you to do as they about covered any thing you need to know.Sound advice.
 
#25 ·
It might be the brand of bullet. I have shot several thousand lswc 200 grain using 5.0 grains of w231 without a FTF.I then tried Missouri bullets and that is where I started to get FTF on a regular basis. The gun would not go into battery after shooting these for a while.
I discovered severe leading in the barrel especially at the throat. I cleaned the barrel and went back to the bullets lswc for SNS casting-flawless. I recently tried my Missouri bullets and after 40 rounds I could not get the gun to go into battery.i have expressed my dissatisfaction with Missouri bullets and will not use them again. I think that they are too soft and their quality control is being compromised due to massive demand.
My reload recipe is identical for both Missouri and SNS casting bullets.
 
#26 ·
I load 4.7 grains of HP 38 (same powder) with a 200 grain SWC. My AOL is 1.260 for my SIG 1911. I had one round fail in the manner you noted. I did not force it closed but carefully extracted the round. Inspecting the round I found that some lead had pushed up at the case mouth. I cleaned the lead from the mouth, reloaded and continued to fire without issue.

Check to see that your crimp is clean.
 
#29 ·
butter

hhhmmm...., my stuffs tuned to the nines, handloads feed smooth, no ka-chunks, no hesitation, no need to overdrive with heavy recoil springs... smooth, not violent, smooth. Every handload tuned to tuned 1911 controlled feed, not violent, tuned like hand fit, hand polished 1911 parts. Ammunition is a component of the weapon, to work smoothly each part has to be hand fit to work with all the other parts inside a gun. If there's a semi-wadcutter manufactured that can't be tuned to 1911 controlled feed, I've yet to find it.

dc.
 
#30 ·
Lead bullets are usually sized larger than their FMJ counterparts, and often have a shoulder that one does not have to deal with when using FMJ bullets. Being softer, they are easy to damage with over-crimping or shaving during the reloading process if one is not careful to avoid these issues.

This is where the case gauge or using the barrel for the "plunk" test comes into play. It tells us whether or not the round fits the chamber.

But fitting the chamber is of no use if the shape and length of the bullet prevent the round from making it into the chamber. As Nick mentions, this is not a smooth ride, and a few thousandths of an inch will make all the difference as to whether the rounds chamber reliably or not.

If there were a "standard" length for the 200 Grain LSWC, it would be 1.250. But, my RIA gun will not feed with 100% reliability at that length. When I shorten the round to 1.235, it never fails. We work with what we have:)
 
#32 · (Edited)
Here's what 1.260 looks like using MBC lbnswc...... photo used before when a person in this forum suggested 1.260 swc oal.


I seat this bullet between 1.10 to 1.20 depending on component mix. 1911 controlled feed is just that, controlled from ogive and case rim. For feed to become " violent "... means a loss of control or tolerance stacking within feed channel. Tuned, control feed cartridge operates within a through, up, over and in, forward and rear guidance system.

dc.
 
#33 ·
For feed to become " violent "... means a loss of control or tolerance stacking within feed channel. dc.
That's what I thought too.

Earlier this year I came across a high speed video (several thousand frames per second)
of a tuned 1911 feeding a 230 grain RN cartridge. Holy crap. I learned something new that day.

We talk about guns feeding smoothly. From our human perception, it sure seems smooth.
At several thousand frames per second, we see that this is not true.
 
#38 · (Edited)
butter

Bullet nose shouldn't touch feed ramp, first thing to hit 1911 feed ramp should be the upper portion of the ogive, as bullet moves up, control passes to lower portion of ogive. Through GI configured or early hybrid configured magazines "the nose" as we often call it is actually ogive side of bullet and held down until released at points inside feed lips. As navigation continues, control, guidance passes from upper side to lower side of ogive. As ogive leaves feed ramp guidance passes to upper ogive curve again at barrel hood. Issue with semi-wadcutters is no upper portion to swc ogive to control, shorter magazine release points throw swc bullets up, skipping upper portion of ogive control.

If you want to call speed violent, fine. Fighter planes moving off carrier decks is described as violent, the business of controlling "the nose" of plane is controlled to point of release and the process of lift off is smooth, other than the violent jerk from tether and rapid acceleration plane smoothly transitions from deck to air. That's not quite the parable to 1911 controlled feed, but enough to make a point. The process of controlled feed is quick, contact points of ogive hit control points of feed ramp and barrel hood quickly, but the business of through, up and over a smooth transition to chamber, when ogive is positioned correct distance from case rim to ogive. Get the spread between case rim and ogive too long or too short and bullet nose will hit feed ramp and possibly stick, which brings us to ogive shape, height and what magazine works best with what bullet.

dc.
 
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