I would certainly expect the ammo to be the standard .45 ACP ammo (cartridge, caliber .45, ball, M1911) that has been in military use for the last 101 years. Chamber pressure = 19,000 psi; Velocity = 885 +/- 25 fps (25.5 ft from muzzle)
iMagUdspEllr, That's the current spec and yes, it is with a 230 grain ball projectile. Graves all over the world are filled with evidence that M1911 ammo is effective.
The same reasons why they felt the need to make changes from the original M1911 on the new Colt M45. Technology advances. So, we improve things with said advances.
Another question. Do you have sources that show the military .45 ACP specifications that they are using for the M45? I googled a little bit but I couldn't find anything specific like the M882 for the M9. Thank you for your responses.
The same reasons why they felt the need to make changes from the original M1911 on the new Colt M45. Technology advances. So, we improve things with said advances.
Another question. Do you have sources that show the military .45 ACP specifications that they are using for the M45? I googled a little bit but I couldn't find anything specific like the M882 for the M9. Thank you for your responses.
No significant changes - it's still a 1911-type/platform because that's what the boys wanted. Other pistols may reflect 'changes' and 'technological advances' but the 1911 remains the best pistol ever conceived for CQB.
Theoretically couldn't they use those Federal expanding FMJ's here? I know that round may not be the end all be all, but it's gotta have a higher wounding capacity than straight up ball.
Coyote, In contrast to the concern by many on this and other firearms forums, the military does not recognize any terminal ballistics issues associated with the use of GI ball ammo. Since they do not recognize any issues, they are very unlikely to even entertain changes. Besides, the use of expanding ammo inhibits penetration to some degree and penetration is a very big deal in the military world. In the military world, there is no such thing as overpenetration.
When I was in Iraq I borrowed some GI ball from the boys in 5th Group, who were using arsenal rebuilt 1911A1s. I was given WW commercial white-box stuff. The Army used to have a ton of TZZ ball, but that's all gone now.
Bob
This isn't "Geneva", and I don't recall the last war we fought there....:biglaugh:
That being said (totally in jest), I vaguely remember hearing somewhere that different units in the US military were using 185gr JHP's. But I could be wrong.....and I am often.
OIF2, I heard a rumor that TZZ ammo was not being issued in the Middle East. Seems silly but I have discovered that silly is sometimes still the truth. Have you heard anything to that effect? Talking about TZZ ammo, have you found TZZ match ammo to be better or worse than WCC match ammo? I've personally only shot WCC match ammo but have picked up some TZZ match ammo cases at the range. They seem to reload well.
OIF2, I heard a rumor that TZZ ammo was not being issued in the Middle East. Seems silly but I have discovered that silly is sometimes still the truth. Have you heard anything to that effect?
iMagUdspEllr, I believe that saxman is stating that virtually all the changes you mentioned really fall into the category of enhancements as opposed to fundamental mechanical changes to the basic design.
Imag you could always use 45 +p to get some more juice and/or handloads. The reason standard charges havent increased is because saami spec ammunition has to stay at the original published pressure. I.e. todays ammo has to be safe to use in any 45 auto gun ever made.
Did we sign it? We use hollow points in sniper rifles and still use incendiary weapons( I think). Both of those are banned. Why not use them in pistols?
Brucey, You bring up a good point. Here's the story - despite the fact that we did not sign these documents, we still abide by their intent. That is a matter of national policy. For a period of time we did not use hollow point rifle ammo (specifically M852 ammo) for combat operations. In fact, the M2A1 cans that M852 ammo came in use to have the words "No For Combat Operations" stenciled on the can. Later, a memo was written by the Judge Avocate General's office which allowed this ammo to be used in combat operations (and this was later expanded to M118LR ammo). The rationale employed in the memo was that despite the fact that the ammo was hollow point ammo, the reason for the use of this projectile construction was for enhanced accuracy as opposed to increasing suffering. Furthermore it was explained that this ammo did not result in any more extensive terminal ballistic damage than other conventional types of rifle ammo.
I haven't seen any TZZ ball anywhere in the Army since the late 90's or so... except the match stuff. The early TZZ ball was really hot and tended to crack slides. It wasn't that accurate, either. Some of the TZZ match ball is still in inventory and issued to some Guard and Reserve units that use 1911s in competition. The Army Marksmanship Unit (both active and reserve) uses M9s in competition, so 1911 ammo isn't needed. The TZZ Match stuff you want if it comes up for sale are lots #007 and #008. The other stuff doesn't group (at 50 yards) all that well. The lots mentioned will hang with the best of the old W-W white box match ball. Hope this helps.
Bob
Bob, Thanks for the info. If those two lots of TZZ match ammo shoot as well as the old WCC match ammo, that tells me it is good stuff. I was surprised to hear that the early TZZ ball ammo was excessively hot. Do you know what lots were problematic? Thanks!
The early TZZ GI ball was all pretty hot... close to 900 fps. Don't remember the lots, but it was all the early stuff. There was also a bunch of SWC 185 grain TZZ target stuff the Army bought then that was used by some military teams that wasn't that good. The later batches of TZZ match ball improved as time went on. We chrono'd some later 007 stuff in the late '90's that was averaging around 850 fps. Good stuff that was used at Perry with great success until the M9 took over.
Bob
Bob, I shot about half of a carton of TZZ 85 ball ammo and I noticed it had slightly sharper recoil than normal - not a much but still noticable. I expect that this must have been some of the "early stuff". I'm very surprised that hot ammo would pass the normal QC inspections. I have reloaded a bunch of TZZ brass and it seems to be good stuff. Thanks!
I'd probably suggest that even if a hotter load was a serious option, the last thing that the PWS armorers would want is greater wear on the weapons. I understand that those guys have a backlog much larger than anyone would consider reasonable.
I've got about 100 rds of the match lot 8. Should shoot it up at the range or set it aside? I've shot some of it but shoot more off the shelf stuff and used up most of the tzz 85 1911 ball that I had.
Lot #008 is VERY accurate stuff. I'd hang on to it for something special and shoot up the off-the shelf stuff. The accuracy difference is breathtaking at 50 yds between the really good match stuff and run of the mill ammo.
Bob
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