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How many shots in a gunfight?

23K views 115 replies 62 participants last post by  DeltaKilo 
#1 ·
I've heard any number of shots from different people but I am looking for a legitimate source that reports the number of shots on average that are fired in a gunfight.

Any ideas?

Thanks
 
#2 ·
No idea, but I'm interested too.
 
#4 ·
It all depends on if they are a LEO or a civilian. LEO's tend to use the spray and pray technique and its not uncommon to hear about incidences where they (LEO's) fire 70 shots and manage to wound the suspect once, in the forearm.

Civilians are generally better trained and better shooters on average so I would guess they end gunfights on average within 1-5 rds
 
#8 ·
While there are many sources, the NYPD is often cited based largely in part on the fact that they have such a large pool to draw from and attempt to keep accurate records. When they were carrying revolvers the average number of shots fired per officer per gunfight was six. When they switched over to autos, the number increased to eight. Their average hit percentage has remained at approximately 20%.

Take into account that those are only LE shootings so may or may not be directly applicable to private citizens, and most definitely not to military.

Unfortunately, I have the distinct displeasure of having been involved in multiple gunfights.... and believe me, it is a displeasure. For what it is worth, the lowest number I have fired was 2. The greatest was 9.
 
#9 ·
This is what the "Tactical Dali Llama" (Ken Hackathorn) had to say to us in March.



^ Ken's description of the "Real World".

Key points:
*There is a significant difference between a shooting and a gunfight. A shooting involves 1 actor pulling a trigger, a gunfight involves both people shooting at each other (or more than 2 people shooting at each other).

*Most gunfights and shooting happen inside of 10 yards, and in low or failing light.

*Both parties are typically moving as soon as the shooting starts.

*In shootings, 1-4 rounds are fired. In gunfights, both parties shoot to empty, regardless of capacity.

Considering who Ken is, and how long he's been at it....I'm inclined to believe him. ;)
 
#10 ·
I think a lot of the reason why police seem to have lower 'hit %' (or at least perception seems to be going around) is that the LEO engagements I would bet, happen at greater distance. I would also bet that they (the LEOs) are fired on first, whereas civilian confrontations are either simultaneous fire or where we have the advantage in dropping the hammer.
 
#11 ·
I think a lot of the reason why police seem to have lower 'hit %' (or at least perception seems to be going around) is that the LEO engagements I would bet, happen at greater distance. I would also bet that they (the LEOs) are fired on first, whereas civilian confrontations are either simultaneous fire or where we have the advantage in dropping the hammer.
Why? LEO's have much looser rules regarding having their weapons in hand that civilians do.

A cop can put his hand on his gun, or take it out, almost anytime he feels remotely threatened. If a non-LEO tried that, they'd be booked for brandishing, terroristic threats, or aggravated assault in a New York Minute.
 
#13 ·
Not really. LAPD has a distinct written policy limiting when officers can draw their weapon. A violation of the policy can result in suspension days off.

While its true in a busy division officers will respond to or become involved in 15-20 situations per watch where they could potentially be involved in a shooting. After awhile you either get used to it and only draw when you really need to, or you request a transfer to a slow area.

Either way trickyasafox is correct, most police shootings are in REACTION to what a suspect does, meaning the officer is almost always playing catch up.
 
#15 ·
Not really. LAPD has a distinct written policy limiting when officers can draw their weapon. A violation of the policy can result in suspension days off.

While its true in a busy division officers will respond to or become involved in 15-20 situations per watch where they could potentially be involved in a shooting. After awhile you either get used to it and only draw when you really need to, or you request a transfer to a slow area.

Either way trickyasafox is correct, most police shootings are in REACTION to what a suspect does, meaning the officer is almost always playing catch up.

That is exactly where "Second Chance;" vest got their name.
 
#12 ·
*In shootings, 1-4 rounds are fired. In gunfights, both parties shoot to empty, regardless of capacity.

Considering who Ken is, and how long he's been at it....I'm inclined to believe him.
While I believe Ken is a credible instructor, I would have to fundamentally disagree with those figures.

From personal experience and intimate knowledge of many shootings and gunfights (regardless of how one defines them), I can tell you that a significantly large number of "shootings" involve more than just a few shots. I can also attest that many "gunfights" have been ended with 1 or 2 shots, even while the defender was under aggressive fire.

It has much more to do with the training and abilities of the shooter than it does with whether or not it is a "shooting" or a "gunfight." I would assert that those with greater training tend to fire fewer rounds but with markedly better results.

There are, of course, other variables such as distance, lighting, obstacles, movement, and number of parties involved that will significantly increase or decrease the number of shots fired/required.
 
#14 ·
I don't know.

There is no finite answer to this question because there are so many variables.

I carry three mags with 24 rounds knowing damn well the bad guy has one mag and 30 rounds potentially. Lord willing, I never will have to worry about a actual gun fight.
 
#28 ·
I am hoping that this doesn't come off as posturing, because it isn't, since the more I learn the less I know.

I have had students involved in fights that ended with one shot (well placed) and I have had students who expended 21 28 round magazines (from an M-4 on a long convoy which was hit several times).

Assuming we aren't talking military action here, I have had L.E. students fire over 20 rounds in one fight (not lousy shooting but the interveining barriers "ate" most of the bullets - and those of the bad guy).

Having studied this for 4 decades, I dont beleive there are reliable figures that are actually something we can count on, though some are pretty detailed - the FBI "Victimization Study" of 2006 or so was pretty informative and the Police Marksman study by Dick Fairbain (not to be confused with Cpt. William Ewart Fairbairn of the Shanghai Municiple Police) which took several years to compile were also useful. But one might think that the information was conflicting if he did not realise the problems in accumulating such "data".

The P.M. study broke it down by caliber and reported that 9mm cases (all police I think) there were about twice as many rounds fired as with .45s, or revolvers - one can leap to his own conclusions as to why.

While knowing what the "typical" fight might entail is probably a good place to start it is really somewhat dangerous to assume *your* fight will resemble it.

The fight will not necessarily follow your script - it will write its own script.

Onward,

Jim H.
 
#29 ·
I offer the following very random thoughts:

While I suspect the statistical average may be 3-5 shots, the mode, or most freqently occurring number, may not be.

Statistics are of very little comfort when your are the statitical exception.

Comparing most LEOS to most IPSC/IDPA/ 3 gun competitors is comparing apples to oranges as most LEOS do not compete or shoot the same weekly/monthly/yearly roundcount nor do most competitiors find themselves in the same number of daily/weekly/monthly/yearly confrontations of all ilk.
Moreover, the majority of competitors I know and shoot with would lose any gunfight/shooting they would find themselves in outside of their home as they do not routinely carry a firearm.

Based on my 20 + yrs of training as both a student and instructor, many rural, grew up with guns types think they shoot much better than they
do, particularly with a handgun.

In fact, IMNSHO, most males think they shoot a pistol much better than they think they do, be them urban, rural, suburban, rich, poor, black, white, brown, yellow, red or any combonation thereof. This is particularly true if you introduce any type of stress, i.e. accuracy standard, timer, head to head competition or combonation of the above.


Tom Givens of Rangemaster (Memphis) has had nearly 60 non-leo students involved in shooting/gunfiights with great success. Their shot average as I recall was 4 with incidents having just 1 and going to 14 rounds fired.

YMMV Greatly. Be safe and well all.
 
#32 ·
Don't really have any idea how many shots are fired in a shooting or a gunfight. My plan is to keep shooting until the BG is on the ground and has stopped all hostile intent. I carry a 45 everyday with 2 spare 8 round mags so that's 24 rounds total. I carry a 45 because firing twice takes too long. I hope that's enough, although if I have to reload I'm in way over my head and need to be unassing the AO instead of reloading. I also compete in IDPA at least once a month, to stay on top of my skills. In competition I have seen LEO's that are very good and I have seen some that couldn't hit the board side of a barn if they were standing inside the barn, go figure. Those that aren't very good don't usually make more than 2 matches, before they decide that competition is not their cup of tea. Actually I think they are ashamed of being out shot by a civilian. You would think that somebody who puts their life on the line everyday would practice more, especially since their ammo is supplied by their department. I have invited several Leo's I know to come out and practice and compete, but they never take me up on the offer.
 
#35 ·
There may be others from Ohio, . . . but several years ago, an OHP officer exchanged something like 18 rounds at less than 10 feet, . . . caught on the dash cam, . . . bg supposedly hit officer once, . . . stopped by his bp garment, . . . bg never even touched, . . . hopped into the Suburban with his brother, . . . boogied on their way back to Colorado.

Then, about 6 months ago, . . . a local deputy, . . . again caught on the dash cam, . . . just unloaded, . . . something like 15 rounds in 4 seconds at a guy running away from him. There was no trigger control, . . . no sighting, . . . just hammer the trigger, . . . one of em will get him, . . . or one of the other mobile homes in the background.

Tragic is too tame a word for such gross incompetence.

May God bless,
Dwight
 
#39 ·
The second scenario if you have descibed it accurately would have resulted in a murder charge for the cop if he had managed to kill the bg in my state.
 
#37 ·
Things cops aren’t:

Assassins

Gun fighters

Killers

Mercenaries

Survivalists

SOG (special operations group)

SAS (Special Air Services)

Hollywood heroes

Delta force



Things cops are:

Peace Officers



I don’t know about you guys, but I ain’t tuff enough to be a street cop.

:)
 
#48 ·
Absolutely agree, 100%.

But I became proficient with firearms when my job had me carrying one. Thankfully, I had to use one a scarce few times. I remain proficient with them because I have accepted the responsibility for their use in a self defence situation.

My point was...being a LEO requires you to carry a myriad of lethal and non-lethal weapons...you should be a little more functional than the general public with those weapons...JMHO.

As to being a Cop...nope...not me brother. I might be tough enough, but my tolerance for BS is way lower than it would have to be. Too hard a job for too little respect and money...Hat's off to those guys.
 
#38 · (Edited)
Accordind to Mike Rayburn who travels all over the country teaching cops and civilians the latest techniques and has written 3 books on the subject. the latest FBI stats are 2 shots in less then 2.6 seconds, between 12-2 A.M , less then 7 yds.
 
#41 ·
videos?

LEO's have different type of engagements than civilians, as civilians may be held up or carjacked and have a 3 shot fight. Police don't get held up for wallet or carjacked. Maybe. Looks like fast draw and point shooting skills are life savers for civilians. LE have different decision making training and process. God bless them. The Fla. school bd. video was really a learning experience, especially since only one guy was shot. Wonder if there a videos from other incidents compiled by LE or others or even military to study shoot outs as there is a lot to learn from real incidents.
 
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